Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

[mvmac]

Saw it and really liked it. The movie looked awesome, the scenes at the salt mine, the space battles, the light saber fight in Snoke's throne room.

At first I wasn't sure how I felt because I was expecting something different. With 4-6 a lot of the characters are connected, Luke and Leia are brother/sister, Vader is their father, Obi Wan and Yoda taught Luke and also taught his father. Obviously this movie, and next phase of Star Wars is different. 

I see a lot of fans are upset and feel the Skywalker legacy has bee destroyed. To me it would have been sophomoric for Luke to come back the knight in shinning armor and destroy the First Order. If Luke was this great hero then the First Order wouldn't be in power and you wouldn't have an Episode 7/8.

It makes sense Luke is in the situations he's in. Luke received very little training compared to other Jedi's so he had to figure out a lot on his own and couldn't get past his failures. He tried to do his best and when some scary information was revealed to him, he almost killed his nephew, a brief moment that created Kylo Ren and almost lead to the annihilation of the resistance. As he said in the movie, the Jedi get blinded by their own hubris and this happened to Luke. Maybe Luke's error was thinking he could do too much on his own? 

He thinks the Jedi order should end because if the light gets stronger, so does the dark, that's the balance of the force, it's a never ending battle with a lot of people getting caught in the middle. So he figures it's best for him to go into exile and cut himself off from the Force.

We're told to look at the Skywalkers as a family of heroes but maybe their legacy is to always be seduced or even succumb to the dark side. When you look at Anakin, Luke and Ben Solo, they're all emotionally immature, "head in the clouds" types and prone to tantrums. Very different temperaments than what we see from Obi Wan, Yoda, Qui Gon Jinn, Mace Windu. The Skywalkers all have the potential and interest to be great force users but don't really have the maturity that it requires. They are potentially "easy pickings" for the cunning Sith.

[iacas]

IIRC, I’ve read several things that make a very good case for the Empire as the good guys.

This movie does nothing to change it.

Kinda like this one. I’ve seen others I think too. http://www.weeklystandard.com/the-case-for-the-empire/article/2540

[dennyjones]

52 minutes ago, iacas said:

IIRC, I’ve read several things that make a very good case for the Empire as the good guys.

This movie does nothing to change it.

Kinda like this one. I’ve seen others I think too. http://www.weeklystandard.com/the-case-for-the-empire/article/2540

interesting read...

[amishboy51]

10 hours ago, mvmac said:

Saw it and really liked it. The movie looked awesome, the scenes at the salt mine, the space battles, the light saber fight in Snoke's throne room.

At first I wasn't sure how I felt because I was expecting something different. With 4-6 a lot of the characters are connected, Luke and Leia are brother/sister, Vader is their father, Obi Wan and Yoda taught Luke and also taught his father. Obviously this movie, and next phase of Star Wars is different. 

I see a lot of fans are upset and feel the Skywalker legacy has bee destroyed. To me it would have been sophomoric for Luke to come back the knight in shinning armor and destroy the First Order. If Luke was this great hero then the First Order wouldn't be in power and you wouldn't have an Episode 7/8.

It makes sense Luke is in the situations he's in. Luke received very little training compared to other Jedi's so he had to figure out a lot on his own and couldn't get past his failures. He tried to do his best and when some scary information was revealed to him, he almost killed his nephew, a brief moment that created Kylo Ren and almost lead to the annihilation of the resistance. As he said in the movie, the Jedi get blinded by their own hubris and this happened to Luke. Maybe Luke's error was thinking he could do too much on his own? 

He thinks the Jedi order should end because if the light gets stronger, so does the dark, that's the balance of the force, it's a never ending battle with a lot of people getting caught in the middle. So he figures it's best for him to go into exile and cut himself off from the Force.

We're told to look at the Skywalkers as a family of heroes but maybe their legacy is to always be seduced or even succumb to the dark side. When you look at Anakin, Luke and Ben Solo, they're all emotionally immature, "head in the clouds" types and prone to tantrums. Very different temperaments than what we see from Obi Wan, Yoda, Qui Gon Jinn, Mace Windu. The Skywalkers all have the potential and interest to be great force users but don't really have the maturity that it requires. They are potentially "easy pickings" for the cunning Sith.

I’m not a big Star Wars fan (my wife is, so I saw Last Jedi), but FWIW, I like a lot of your comment.

[nevets88]

When that Porg was in front of the light saber, I was like, you better get out of the way little guy. Also thought, hmmm...., foreshadowing? Yes it was. Twice.

 

[iacas]

10 minutes ago, nevets88 said:

When that Porg was in front of the light saber, I was like, you better get out of the way little guy. Also thought, hmmm...., foreshadowing? Yes it was. Twice.

Twice?

Snoke is once.

Are you counting Kylo Ren on Luke at the end? Cuz I doubt it.

I'm probably forgetting something obvious.

Oh, the one when Rey throws it to Ren and he kills the Red Plastic Baddie is two, huh?

[nevets88]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

Twice?

Snoke is once.

Are you counting Kylo Ren on Luke at the end? Cuz I doubt it.

I'm probably forgetting something obvious.

Oh, the one when Rey throws it to Ren and he kills the Red Plastic Baddie is two, huh?

That's a bingo!

A hole in one Porg! A Porgie. 

Also, what's a wood chipper doing in the throne room? That red baddie got chopped up real good.

[mvmac]

14 hours ago, iacas said:

IIRC, I’ve read several things that make a very good case for the Empire as the good guys.

This movie does nothing to change it.

Kinda like this one. I’ve seen others I think too. http://www.weeklystandard.com/the-case-for-the-empire/article/2540

Thanks for posting. I've been saying something similar for a while. A buddy of mine and my wife always disagree but can't provide much evidence to why the Empire is "evil".

[saevel25]

7 minutes ago, mvmac said:

Thanks for posting. I've been saying something similar for a while. A buddy of mine and my wife always disagree but can't provide much evidence to why the Empire is "evil".

I think it's the ends justify the means mentality. 

There is something inherently wrong for punishing an entire planet for the acts of a few people. Is the entire planet of Alderaan conspiring, or is it just a small group from that planet? They never explain that at all. It could be true. I doubt there were no innocent people on that planet. Did they deserve to die just because they happen to live there? 

If a person beliefs in absolute obedience and that any sort of punishment, even death is warranted, then sure the definition of evil gets pushed further away from what most would consider it to be. 

I don't buy these type of arguments. They can be made, but its basically a philosophical question. 

Edited December 26, 2017 by saevel25

[iacas]

9 hours ago, saevel25 said:

I think it's the ends justify the means mentality. 

There is something inherently wrong for punishing an entire planet for the acts of a few people. Is the entire planet of Alderaan conspiring, or is it just a small group from that planet? They never explain that at all. It could be true. I doubt there were no innocent people on that planet. Did they deserve to die just because they happen to live there? 

If a person beliefs in absolute obedience and that any sort of punishment, even death is warranted, then sure the definition of evil gets pushed further away from what most would consider it to be. 

I don't buy these type of arguments. They can be made, but its basically a philosophical question. 

Thing is, that's ONE example.

And for all you know, maybe the entire planet was run as a rebel outpost, or people supporting them.

Anyway… that's one of very few examples, no?

[saevel25]

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

And for all you know, maybe the entire planet was run as a rebel outpost, or people supporting them.

Anyway… that's one of very few examples, no?

True

 

[nevets88]

 

Quote

The fact that fascism inspired the look and feel of the Empire is no secret. In fact, Star Wars creator George Lucas even refers to the Imperial officers in The Empire Strikes Back as “Nazis” while giving his commentary of the film. He specifically mentions their militaristic dress, noting, “The Nazis are basically the same costume as we used in the first film and they are designed to be very authoritarian, very empire-like.”

https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/105998/was-the-empire-in-star-wars-inspired-by-nazi-germany

http://www.starwars.com/news/from-world-war-to-star-wars-stormtroopers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormtrooper

[cipher]

In cannon there are many, many examples. There were many abductions and manipulation of force-sensitive children, enslaving people groups, there are many examples of mass murder across the galaxy, and the murder of anyone who did not meet their expectations to name just a few.  Opinions otherwise are just attempted justification and trendy click-bait.

 

 

Edited December 26, 2017 by cipher

[nevets88]

I liked where TLJ and Rogue One were going with, the "good guys" aren't as great as you think they are, it's a grey zone - kind of surprised Kathleen Kennedy green lighted Rian's TLJ script. I get that fans wanted a more black and white, hope and good guys win clear cut scenario, and given the backlash, that might be what they get next episode, Di$ney is not going to mess with its investment, also hearing more negative rumors about the Han Solo movie, which even before knowing anything about it, I'm thinking, do I really want that? That is the thing with public companies, short term short term short term bottom line.

[nevets88]

 

[iacas]

2 hours ago, cipher said:

In cannon there are many, many examples.

I don’t know what qualifies as canon anymore. A lot of the expanded universe stuff does not.

I’m just talking about the movies.

http://thefederalist.com/2015/10/22/9-reasons-the-jedi-are-actually-the-bad-guys-in-star-wars/

https://cultrbox.com/2014/05/04/star-wars-6-reasons-why-the-empire-arent-the-bad-guys/

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-why-the-jedi-are-bad-guys-villains/

There are a ton more.

[cipher]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

I don’t know what qualifies as canon anymore. A lot of the expanded universe stuff does not.

I’m just talking about the movies.

Even if I confine my information to films, the recent shows, comics, and games which all are canon it backs up my statement.  The films are just a chapter in a book, and I would not base my point on them alone.  I can see some argument for the Jedi not being the "good guys" even though many of the points in those links are quite silly, but there is no way the Galactic Empire would take that place.  I could take nearly every point in those links and argue it suits the Empire(and the Sith) better as well.  

  

 

Edited December 26, 2017 by cipher

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, cipher said:

Even if I confine my information to films, the recent shows, comics, and games which all are canon it backs up my statement.  The films are just a chapter in a book, and I would not base my point on them alone.  I can see some argument for the Jedi not being the "good guys" even though many of the points in those links are quite silly, but there is no way the Galactic Empire would take that place.  I could take nearly every point in those links and argue it suits the Empire better as well.

You say you could, but you don't.  So that doesn't convince me at all.

I'm not really a Star Wars geek. I certainly am not going to watch cartoons about it.

So I like the idea or thought that people have it backward. George Lucas could have made it much clearer, but aside from dressing them in black (but storm troopers are in white?), their actions don't make it super obvious that they're evil.

Nothing in TLJ pushes the balance one way or the other, either, IMO.