Coaches' philosophy?

[krupa]

18 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

Last summer I took a lesson, and wasted $65. The pro did nothing for me. He didn't fix my swing. He didn't change anything. He watched me swing, and provided a couple of band-aids. The moment the lesson was over, I went right back to where I was, $65 poorer. This put a real bad taste in my mouth for golf instruction, which I've been overcoming ever since.

I've taken lessons in a lot of things.  Not a single one resulted in immediate improvement.  Why?  Because anything taught/changed in a lesson requires a lot of practice.  

That said, the guy you paid may have just spewed whatever he read in the recent Golf Digest.   But even if you go to a top-10 ranked instructor you certainly shouldn't expect major changes that magically take affect from that moment forward. 

[Patch]

14 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

Last summer I took a lesson, and wasted $65. The pro did nothing for me. He didn't fix my swing. He didn't change anything. He watched me swing, and provided a couple of band-aids. The moment the lesson was over, I went right back to where I was, $65 poorer. This put a real bad taste in my mouth for golf instruction, which I've been overcoming ever since.

If my question was ridiculous, I assure you, the reasons behind it are not. If anything, the responses have shown that this is needed by a lot of folks. Paying a professional golf teacher is a crapshoot.

They say golf is a game of integrity, and honesty. They do not say what facets of the game have this integrity, an honesty. It's my opinion that it is some of the individuals involved in the game who has these traits. 

I also think that the area of golf instruction suffers the most from having a lack of integrity, and honesty. Worst part about these charlatans teachings is, it give a bad rap to the the really qualified instructors. 

When it comes to golf, that old term "canveate emptor" or how ever you spell it, has a tremendous meaning. 

 

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, Patch said:

I also think that the area of golf instruction suffers the most from having a lack of integrity, and honesty. Worst part about these charlatans teachings is, it give a bad rap to the the really qualified instructors.

I don't think they lack integrity. I think they just aren't good at what they do. This includes some with very high profiles.

[Blackjack Don]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Do your research. There are good ones out there. Not a lot. But enough.

What do you recommend? How would you go about doing the research?

[Missouri Swede]

20 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

What do you recommend? How would you go about doing the research?

Here's one start:
http://5sk.com/index.php/site/find

Here's another:
https://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/the_instructor_quiz_nine_questions_youve_gotta_ask

 

[iacas]

We outlined a pretty good process in LSW, too.

[Lihu]

2 hours ago, Blackjack Don said:

Last summer I took a lesson, and wasted $65. The pro did nothing for me. He didn't fix my swing. He didn't change anything. He watched me swing, and provided a couple of band-aids. The moment the lesson was over, I went right back to where I was, $65 poorer. This put a real bad taste in my mouth for golf instruction, which I've been overcoming ever since.

If my question was ridiculous, I assure you, the reasons behind it are not. If anything, the responses have shown that this is needed by a lot of folks. Paying a professional golf teacher is a crapshoot.

This might help. . .

https://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/the_instructor_quiz_nine_questions_youve_gotta_ask

 

 

2 hours ago, iacas said:

Do your research. There are good ones out there. Not a lot. But enough.

 

[Patch]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

I don't think they lack integrity. I think they just aren't good at what they do. This includes some with very high profiles.

I'll give you the benefit of knowing more about golf instruction, and instructors than I do.

My thought is that if a person is not good at something they are trying to sell, then they are being dishonest to the buyer. Honesty, and integrity go hand in hand. 

[alleztom]

22 minutes ago, Patch said:

My thought is that if a person is not good at something they are trying to sell, then they are being dishonest to the buyer.

Surely here the idea of 'unconscious incompetence' from other threads on this forum springs to mind? The road to hell paved with good intentions etc.

[iacas]

29 minutes ago, Patch said:

My thought is that if a person is not good at something they are trying to sell, then they are being dishonest to the buyer. Honesty, and integrity go hand in hand. 

They don't know they suck at it.

[mvmac]

3 hours ago, Blackjack Don said:

What do you recommend? How would you go about doing the research?

Just ask me

You have three really good instructors in your neck of the woods at TPC Summerlin, Mario Bevilacqua is one of them and he's a friend of mine.

Evolvr would be another option with qualified instructors at an awesome value.

http://evolvr.thegolfevolution.com/

[Blackjack Don]

6 hours ago, mvmac said:

Just ask me

You have three really good instructors in your neck of the woods at TPC Summerlin, Mario Bevilacqua is one of them and he's a friend of mine.

Evolvr would be another option with qualified instructors at an awesome value.

http://evolvr.thegolfevolution.com/

Thanks for the advice. Fortunately for me, I found one who is really helping me. Unfortunately, he may be leaving for a better job, and I'll be back to square one. Fortunately, I'm better now than I was before, so it's all good I'm having a good time. I love golf, dammnit! lol

I was watching The Golf Fix today. He had a guy on who was advocating flipping on chips and even wedges 50 yards out. Really? Yes, really. He was putting down having a straight left wrist and hitting the ball before the ground. This is one of those things that make me crazy. Either it is, or it isn't. I can't be both. Period. Or it can, and why do even care? Oy!

It can't be easy for anybody out there, who doesn't have access to wise men here.

[iacas]

28 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

I was watching The Golf Fix today. He had a guy on who was advocating flipping on chips and even wedges 50 yards out. Really? Yes, really. He was putting down having a straight left wrist and hitting the ball before the ground. This is one of those things that make me crazy. Either it is, or it isn't. I can't be both. Period. Or it can, and why do even care? Oy!

That guy is James Ridyard, and he teaches pitching almost exactly the way Dave and I have been teaching it, which is not that dissimilar to the way Stan Utley, or James Sieckmann, or Seve (via Mac O'Grady), or Phil Rodgers taught it…

Cupped left wrist at impact. Left arm folds quickly.

Sorry, @Blackjack Don, but the "low point 4" in front of the ball" thing isn't the gospel you believe it to be. Pitching properly allows you to have the low point behind the ball or in front of it. It gives you tremendous margin of error.

[saevel25]

Stan Utley made a good comment in a video I watched recently. He talked that if you try to forward press a lot with a pitch you effectively shorten the distance between the ball and the club because you are adding angle to the wrist. When you do that you are required to drop your body towards the ball either by bending over or bending the knees more. Doing this causes the golfer to try to flip to save the shot. This causes a lot of inconsistencies. 

7 hours ago, mvmac said:

Evolvr would be another option with qualified instructors at an awesome value.

http://evolvr.thegolfevolution.com/

I agree with this. Evolvr is a great resource. 

[Blackjack Don]

12 hours ago, iacas said:

Sorry, @Blackjack Don, but the "low point 4" in front of the ball" thing isn't the gospel you believe it to be. Pitching properly allows you to have the low point behind the ball or in front of it. It gives you tremendous margin of error.

When did this change occur? You gotta admit this is a big difference between teaching philosophies. Like "two schools of thought." I'm not wedded to anything, as hard as that might be to believe. It's part of my practice to be open-minded about everything, and that's not easy sometime--see politics at the present time--but it's the best advice I give myself. So I'm not going to say you're wrong, not by any means. I'm glad it give a "tremendous margin for error," because it's needed, I think. Anytime the hands get flippy, there is automatically a lot of inconsistency, I would think. Simply a matter of physics. 

I have a lot of problems with my golf swing that I'm working diligently to correct. One of the biggest is the collapse of my left wrist, esp with the driver. Is this two swings, not one? Or three--driver, middle irons and wedges/pitch/chipping? Would that not increase inconsistency? (Just asking, not debating, I promise.)

Is there a school of thought that starts with the tee and ends with the putt, and one that starts with putting and ends with driver? (I kinda think there is, whether it is carved into stone or not.)

Eric, I can't figure out where you stand. In some ways, you are adamant that there is no one way to hit a golf ball, and yet you also are quite sure that there is. It's okay, whatever you believe, but you should know where you stand. Change is good, but when do you sit on something and say "this is good." Again, I like that you keep an open mind about golf. It's a good thing. I'm just not sure you articulate where you stand so well. Eventually, a swinging pendulum has to stop and come to a rest. That's probably the hardest part for a student, when to stop searching for answers and stick with what you got--and do the hard work, which all of us want to avoid.

For now, I'll stick with the forward swing bottom, flat left wrist school. It's working for me. I'm getting better.

[Hacker James]

Apples and Oranges. There is no "one way" to hit a golf ball, but there are plenty of instances where tried and true methods seem to work for the majority. Also there are many differences between full swings, pitches, chips whereby certain methods are abandoned in favor of different methods for specialty shots.  Utley and others talk about the "Paint Brush" method which is mostly a feel based swing that incorporates a certain amount of wristy release at contact. Like anything else, it requires a bit of practice and skill to pull off on a consistent basis.  Other times, a flat left wrist, a hinge and hold (feel or actual), wide open club face, long, steep, back swing are called for.  So, it is not really a divergence, or alternate schools of thought, its only using the "right tool for the job".
 

[nevets88]

13 hours ago, iacas said:

That guy is James Ridyard, and he teaches pitching almost exactly the way Dave and I have been teaching it, which is not that dissimilar to the way Stan Utley, or James Sieckmann, or Seve (via Mac O'Grady), or Phil Rodgers taught it…

Cupped left wrist at impact. Left arm folds quickly.

Sorry, @Blackjack Don, but the "low point 4" in front of the ball" thing isn't the gospel you believe it to be. Pitching properly allows you to have the low point behind the ball or in front of it. It gives you tremendous margin of error.

There are tweets from Ridyard and others where they show the radar numbers for this method and they can get massive spin numbers.

[No Mulligans]

@Blackjack Don, what you are going through is what a lot of folks go through, myself included.  There is so much information/instruction regarding golf swings... It leads to information overload or analysis paralysis...  I recommend you find a good instructor that can tell you one thing to work on until you get it down (and then the next priority).

I recommend you try becoming a stupid monkey....