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Do You Putt from Off the Green With Flagstick In or Out?


dedalus101
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Leaving the Flagstick In  

66 members have voted

  1. 1. When putting from OFF the green, do you leave the flagstick in?

    • Yes, I leave it in.
      60
    • No, I take it out.
      6


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13 hours ago, jsgolfer said:

Just from your playing, where have you seen this?  I find this hard to believe, I've been playing a long time and I think I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen the flag be a detriment to a ball going in.  In fact, just the other day I was playing a match against some buddies for money, we were on the Par 3 11th hole, I was on the green about 25 feet from the pin, my buddy was short by 10 yards.  He skulls his pitch and hits the pin squarely and it stops a foot away for a tap in 3.  Without the flag he is off the green and might've gone in the water hazard on the other side of the green.

Was your friend using his putter or a wedge? I've never skulled a shot using my putter. Not yet, anyway. And I pray this will never happen. But, who knows?

I would leave the flag stick in, unless I thought that I had good chance of making the shot - when using a wedge.

When I'm playing for practice on the course, I don't pull the flag stick when I'm putting. And I've seen my share of putts not going into the hole, because it deflected off of the flag stick. And I don't consider that a made putt. If I'm too lazy to pull the flag when I'm putting, so be it.

Putting with the flag stick in the cup - is not an advantage. It's another strange rule as far as I'm concerned. If your putting stroke is so strong that hitting the flag stick is beneficial, then you need to consult your local Pro for putting lessons.

I was watching, last week, when a Pro hit a shot onto the green from over 100 yards away and the ball hit the flag stick and bounced off. The announcer said that if the flag stick had not been in the hole the ball would have gone in. I agreed. Not the first time I've seen this.

Keep watching. It happens a lot.

It's your call. If you think the flag stick will help your shot, when putting from off the green, then by all means - leave the flag stick in the cup.

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7 hours ago, CCC said:

Putting with the flag stick in the cup - is not an advantage. It's another strange rule as far as I'm concerned. If your putting stroke is so strong that hitting the flag stick is beneficial, then you need to consult your local Pro for putting lessons.

I was watching, last week, when a Pro hit a shot onto the green from over 100 yards away and the ball hit the flag stick and bounced off. The announcer said that if the flag stick had not been in the hole the ball would have gone in. I agreed. Not the first time I've seen this.

Keep watching. It happens a lot.

It's your call. If you think the flag stick will help your shot, when putting from off the green, then by all means - leave the flag stick in the cup.

I guess we'll agree to disagree.  

Just because the announcer saying it would've gone in doesn't mean that it would have.  I watch plenty of golf on TV, certainly don't remember any that jump to mind.  

Final question, have you ever hit a putt more than four or five feet past the hole or do you never three putt?  Because if you have, if it hit the pin it likely would stop closer to the hole. Just because it hits the flag does not mean it would've gone in if it wasn't in the hole.  

But don't take my word for it or Erik's.  

http://www.ebay.com/gds/Leave-the-Flagstick-In-Doesnt-Sound-Right-Read-On-/10000000004591713/g.html

The 2003 Masters...During the final round, Mike Weir left the flagstick IN for a long putt from off the green as he had a good lie on the fringe. However he hit his putt too hard, but hit the flagstick dead-center and dropped in for a birdie! Mike went on to win the tournament. Always leave the flagstick in. UPDATE: September 2001...A nationally televised golf show reported that a scientific study was conducted about the age-old question, FLAGSTICK IN OR OUT? The study concluded that 30% more putts and chips from the fringe are made when the flagstick is left in the hole! 

Use The Flagstick To Your Advantage...Leave the flagstick IN whenever you are chipping or putting from the fringe of the green or just off the green as long as the RULES allow and as 
long as you have a good lie. You have that option, flagstick in or out, as long as your ball isn’t on the green. Leaving the flagstick in the hole is to your advantage as long as 1)the wind isn't moving the flagstick around the cup or 2)the cup base isn't worn and the flagstick is leaning in a manner that prevents your ball from dropping cleanly into the hole. From time-to-time we all hit this particular shot too hard, but as long as the flagstick is seated properly we can use it as a backstop. There will be fewer occasions when your ball will hit the flagstick dead center and bounce off. 

http://www.golf.com/instruction/flag-or-out

For each test, I set the TruRoller about two feet from the cup and measured 1) how far the ball rolled past the hole when the hole was covered, 2) how many putts stayed in the hole when the hole was not covered and the flagstick was out, and 3) how many putts stayed in the hole when the flagstick was left in.

Each test was run at three different speeds: On a perfectly flat green, the speeds were fast enough to send the ball three feet past the hole, six feet past, and nine feet past.  All told, TruRoller launched thousands of "shots" at the hole, an equal number with the flagstick in and out, on a number of different greens, at five different parts of the hole.

Of course, there were variables in conditions, including imperfect green surfaces, the edges of the cup becoming ragged and worn, the hole being higher in back than in front and acting as a "backstop," and so on. But over thousands and thousands of putts, these variables were more than compensated for. What did I learn? Leave the flagstick in whenever the Rules allow, unless it is leaning so far toward you that the ball can't fit. 

What's funny about the golf magazine test, they did this to prove that you should use the flag when you chip, but basically proved it that you should do it when you're putting as well.  Again, unless you putting speed is better than anyone I've ever seen, it is an advantage to leave the pin in when the rules of golf allow it.

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-Jerry

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"Golf is the closest game to the game we call life. You get bad breaks from good shots; you get good breaks from bad shots but you have to play the ball where it lies."- Bobby Jones

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This must be one of those false "truisms" that people hold on to. I wonder why people take it so personally, I mean the science backs it up. Your experience is not science. Leave the flag in.

I mean, seriously, have you never hit a putt too fast and watched it literally fly directly over the center of the hole?

Colin P.

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4 minutes ago, colin007 said:

This must be one of those false "truisms" that people hold on to. I wonder why people take it so personally, I mean the science backs it up. Your experience is not science. Leave the flag in.

I mean, seriously, have you never hit a putt too fast and watched it literally fly directly over the center of the hole?

I think most of us have much clearer memories of getting "screwed" by the flagstick being in, as compared to the times we get lucky by hitting a flagstick and ending up close.  It certainly happens occasionally that we DO get screwed, but those instances are pretty rare.  

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34 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I think most of us have much clearer memories of getting "screwed" by the flagstick being in, as compared to the times we get lucky by hitting a flagstick and ending up close.  It certainly happens occasionally that we DO get screwed, but those instances are pretty rare.  

^^^ This ^^^

It's not that you can never get a bad break with the pin in.  It's that you'll benefit far more often than not.  

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10 hours ago, CCC said:

 

Putting with the flag stick in the cup - is not an advantage. It's another strange rule as far as I'm concerned. If your putting stroke is so strong that hitting the flag stick is beneficial, then you need to consult your local Pro for putting lessons.

 

 

??? 

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13 hours ago, CCC said:

Putting with the flag stick in the cup - is not an advantage. It's another strange rule as far as I'm concerned. If your putting stroke is so strong that hitting the flag stick is beneficial, then you need to consult your local Pro for putting lessons.

Even without all the statistical information @jsgolfer posted, it's much easier to sink a putt with the flag stick in.

You can even demonstrate this yourself. Take 100 putts with a decent amount of break (~3 degrees?) from lag putting distance (say 30 to 50 feet away?) and aim the way you normally do while taking the stick out, then putt 100 more trying to hit the flag stick with a reasonable amount of contact. You can also alternate every 25 shots or so. Tally up the number made for each type of putt.

Post your results too, it'd be interesting to see.

 

2 hours ago, 14ledo81 said:

??? 

Yeah, @jsgolfer cited pretty reasonable evidence that there is an advantage. . .

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Ah I was wondering when the infamous Pelz study would show up. This is the "scientific" study those who insist leaving the flagstick in refer to. As for what the study proves i totally agree with them but as with all scientific studies the devil is in the detail and in this study one third of the putts were rolled so they would go three feet past the hole, one third so they would go six feet past the whole and one third so they would go nine feet past the hole. In other words if, either because you have very poor speed control or because it is a very long or steep down hill putt, there is a good chance of overhitting the putt by six or nine feet then by all mean leave the flagstick in and pray you hit it.  That is what this scientific study proves and nothing else. My question is what about the makeable putts from just off the green?

It doesn't help to conflate the two questions and I suspect most people would agree to the results of the Pelz study for those long or treacherous putts that risk being badly over struck. However, that does not mean the same is true for a nice fairly level ten footer, In that situation I can see no advantage to the flagstick at all.

Will Glennon

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5 minutes ago, dedalus101 said:

It doesn't help to conflate the two questions and I suspect most people would agree to the results of the Pelz study for those long or treacherous putts that risk being badly over struck. However, that does not mean the same is true for a nice fairly level ten footer, In that situation I can see no advantage to the flagstick at all.

If you're off the green even on a reasonable fringe surface, then speed control is not as good as being on the green.

The flag stick gives you some leeway to putt a little bit harder than usual and allow you to aim at a physically smaller target rather than trying to figure out what part of the hole to aim for.

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2 minutes ago, dedalus101 said:

Ah I was wondering when the infamous Pelz study would show up. This is the "scientific" study those who insist leaving the flagstick in refer to. As for what the study proves i totally agree with them but as with all scientific studies the devil is in the detail and in this study one third of the putts were rolled so they would go three feet past the hole, one third so they would go six feet past the whole and one third so they would go nine feet past the hole. In other words if, either because you have very poor speed control or because it is a very long or steep down hill putt, there is a good chance of overhitting the putt by six or nine feet then by all mean leave the flagstick in and pray you hit it.  That is what this scientific study proves and nothing else. My question is what about the makeable putts from just off the green?

It doesn't help to conflate the two questions and I suspect most people would agree to the results of the Pelz study for those long or treacherous putts that risk being badly over struck. However, that does not mean the same is true for a nice fairly level ten footer, In that situation I can see no advantage to the flagstick at all.

I generally agree that the advantage to leaving the flagstick in on a 10' level putt is going to be very, very close to zero.  On the other hand, the advantage to taking it out on the same level putt (physics-wise, only - I'm excluding those who find it a distraction) is exactly zero.  So as long as you aren't bothered by having to see it there, it's not going to hurt you.  Yes, on those putts you're talking about, it's almost never going to help either, but it's never going to hurt.

Also, you say that the flaw in his study is that he only tested putts that went 3' past or more.  Are you suggesting that a putt traveling slow enough to go past the hole less than 3' could actually hit the flag and stay out?

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17 minutes ago, dedalus101 said:

This is the "scientific" study those who insist leaving the flagstick in refer to.

The post above cited other things, I believe.

I also conducted my own study last year after I posted the thread I've linked to. The evidence available does not support your belief that leaving the flagstick in is detrimental.

17 minutes ago, dedalus101 said:

That is what this scientific study proves and nothing else. My question is what about the makeable putts from just off the green?

Distance control to within even 3 feet past the hole is still pretty good at that range, and at 3' past the hole leaving the flagstick in helps you a significant amount more than it hurts you, especially since the odds of it hurting you (when it's not leaning toward you quite a bit) are nearly 0.

17 minutes ago, dedalus101 said:

However, that does not mean the same is true for a nice fairly level ten footer, In that situation I can see no advantage to the flagstick at all.

Like Drew said:

  • Taking the flagstick out = no advantage
  • Leaving the flagstick in = small advantage

Even on a "level 10 footer" (holes are rarely cut 9' from the fringe, and when they are, few players hit their ball from just into that spot on the fringe).

You're coming up with a very contrived and unlikely example, and the math still doesn't work out in your favor.

Furthermore, a putt hit with "great" distance control is going to fall in whether the flagstick is there or not. There's really no way a flagstick - again, not one leaning so much the ball won't fit - can keep a ball out that's rolling only about a foot past the hole.

The flagstick takes off more speed than it takes away from the effective width of the hole.


The results of the poll are fairly substantial in one direction, and it's not the direction you support. I imagine you're sitting there thinking about all these dumb chumps out there, but your experience doesn't trump physics, nor are you capable of replicating a shot with and without the flagstick to check whether what you believe would have happened is correct.

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1 hour ago, dedalus101 said:

Ah I was wondering when the infamous Pelz study would show up. This is the "scientific" study those who insist leaving the flagstick in refer to. As for what the study proves i totally agree with them but as with all scientific studies the devil is in the detail and in this study one third of the putts were rolled so they would go three feet past the hole, one third so they would go six feet past the whole and one third so they would go nine feet past the hole. In other words if, either because you have very poor speed control or because it is a very long or steep down hill putt, there is a good chance of overhitting the putt by six or nine feet then by all mean leave the flagstick in and pray you hit it.  That is what this scientific study proves and nothing else. My question is what about the makeable putts from just off the green?

It doesn't help to conflate the two questions and I suspect most people would agree to the results of the Pelz study for those long or treacherous putts that risk being badly over struck. However, that does not mean the same is true for a nice fairly level ten footer, In that situation I can see no advantage to the flagstick at all.

You're not doing the set of experiments to prove that from 10 ft that you will hit it 3-6-9 feet past the pin on a level surface, they are proving that if you're putt is of the speed to go by 3-6-9 feet by the hole that hitting the flagstick is a benefit, that's it, no more no less.  @CCC is doing the same thing, trying to compare a shorter putt on a level green (where it's easier to control speed) to a 50 foot putt from off the green but above the hole.  (I agree it is highly unlikely to hit it 6 or 9 feet past the hole from a 10 foot distance (unless it is a sever slope, 3' past I see this frequently).  I'll bring you to Springfield and I will put you 3 feet above our 12th hole (anywhere on the green) and if you don't make it, you ball might not be on the green when the ball stops rolling.

You have to get close enough to the hole because no machine or person is that good of hitting the flag from a long distance consistently, even if you know the line and correct speed.  Read Lowest Score Wins and you'll see that being the best 30 foot putter in the world will not gain you many strokes on the field because the separation value isn't that high.

What really is a make-able putt, 5', 7', 9' or 10-15'.  In reality every putt is make-able, just takes a little luck to make anything from a long distance.  

You can go to the PGATOUR website and see all of the putting statistics.  Here are the average make percentages for tour payers, this is just the players they list on the putting statistic link so it's not every player.

5 Ft  - 96%

7 Ft. - 60% (36% drop off in 2 feet)

9 Ft - 45%

10 Ft - 44%

10-15 Ft. - 30%

So even if the advantage is only 5%, why wouldn't you take that?  

And then for watching golf on TV, you have to be careful using the shots they show you on TV, as what is going on for all pro's on the course.  The guys out of the running, on the bubble, you're not getting to see their shots.  You only see the guys that are playing well or do some fantastic shot, for all we know there are plenty of guys out playing that have received a benefit or not from hitting the flagstick, you just never see those shots.  Same with made putts, up and downs from the sand trap, you only ever see the guys leading or close to the lead.  Just think, in the first two rounds where there are 150 players, the average score for every tournament to date is 71.45 (216 players) which equates to 10,700 shots for each of the first two rounds and then about half after the cut.  How many shots do we really see on TV.  

 

  • Upvote 2

-Jerry

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Well, I'm watching the WM Phoenix Open and I've seen four putts from off of the green.

Spieth and Rahm both putted from off of the green on the 3rd hole. Both of them pulled the flag stick before the stroke. Saw Spieth putt from off the green again, later on. Again, the flag stick was pulled. Saw a quick blip of a guy on 16 putt from off of the green. No flag stick and he sunk it for a birdie.

That's 4 for 4  - putts off of the green with the flag stick pulled. That's 100%!

Go figure.

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10 minutes ago, CCC said:

Well, I'm watching the WM Phoenix Open and I've seen four putts from off of the green.

Spieth and Rahm both putted from off of the green on the 3rd hole. Both of them pulled the flag stick before the stroke. Saw Spieth putt from off the green again, later on. Again, the flag stick was pulled. Saw a quick blip of a guy on 16 putt from off of the green. No flag stick and he sunk it for a birdie.

That's 4 for 4  - putts off of the green with the flag stick pulled. That's 100%!

Go figure.

Pro's are no better than amateurs at times believing the same myth's.  There is another thread @iacas mentoioned something similar in his dealings with other pros, It could've been about this topic or more Likely from LSW.  Gary Player still thinks that drive for show and putt for dough still holds true.

-Jerry

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"Golf is the closest game to the game we call life. You get bad breaks from good shots; you get good breaks from bad shots but you have to play the ball where it lies."- Bobby Jones

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1 hour ago, CCC said:

Well, I'm watching the WM Phoenix Open and I've seen four putts from off of the green.

Spieth and Rahm both putted from off of the green on the 3rd hole. Both of them pulled the flag stick before the stroke. Saw Spieth putt from off the green again, later on. Again, the flag stick was pulled. Saw a quick blip of a guy on 16 putt from off of the green. No flag stick and he sunk it for a birdie.

That's 4 for 4  - putts off of the green with the flag stick pulled. That's 100%!

Go figure.

As @jsgolfer said, they don't always know what's best.

The ones I've talked to about this leave it in.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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Have you talked to Spieth or Rahm lately? I haven't.

I only see the players and the shots they make that the network cares to televise.

Now, the premise of this topic is not so clear to me.  Rather, it should be a question of 'What percentage of time do you pull the flag stick when putting from off of the green'? Not whether you ever pull the flag stick when you are putting from off of the green, or leave it in the cup.

I guess some players never pull the flag stick. Some always remove the flag stick. Spieth and Rahm might pull the flag stick (or not) - depending on how they feel about their chance of holing the shot from their lie.

There is no absolute (yes/no) option to this question.

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6 minutes ago, CCC said:

Have you talked to Spieth or Rahm lately? I haven't.

Okay. What's your point?

Tour players don't always know what's best. Justin Rose told Sean Foley he wanted to work on his wedge game from 75-125 yards a few years ago. A week later Foley returned and told Justin the stats said he was the best player in the game from those yardages.

Tour players don't always know what's best. Quite often, in fact.

6 minutes ago, CCC said:

I guess some players never pull the flag stick. Some always remove the flag stick. Spieth and Rahm might pull the flag stick (or not) - depending on how they feel about their chance of holing the shot from their lie.

There is no absolute (yes/no) option to this question.

Unless the flagstick is leaning so much that the ball won't fit, or it's loose and being blown around a lot, I always leave it in.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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