Do You Putt from Off the Green With Flagstick In or Out?

[CCC]

The ball rolls, but at what speed and direction? All because of the club you decided to hit the shot.

I would rather miss the shot (from off of the green) using my putter than missing the same shot with a wedge.

 

 

[iacas]

7 hours ago, CCC said:

I would rather miss the shot (from off of the green) using my putter than missing the same shot with a wedge.

That's got nothing to do with the topic.

The ball is more likely to go in - whether putted or chipped - with the flagstick in.

If you want to believe the opposite, well, go on ahead. The physics are fine for me back here…

[David in FL]

8 hours ago, CCC said:

The ball rolls, but at what speed and direction? All because of the club you decided to hit the shot.

Once it's rolling, neither the golfer, ball nor the hole care wHat club got it to that point.  If it passes over the cup, it's more likely to go in, or remain closer if the flagstick remains in, than if it had been pulled.  

 

8 hours ago, CCC said:

I would rather miss the shot (from off of the green) using my putter than missing the same shot with a wedge.

If I miss holing it with either club, I'd rather that it had a higher likelihood to end up closer to the hole for my next shot.  

[BirdieLife3]

I think this really varies by situation. If I have an uphill putt from the fringe I'd most likely take it out. If i had a downhill putt I'd probably leave it in.

[Missouri Swede]

3 hours ago, BirdieLife3 said:

If I have an uphill putt from the fringe I'd most likely take it out.

Why? If leaving it in improves (1) your chances of it going in, and (2) a shorter putt if it doesn't go in, why would you pull it?

[BirdieLife3]

28 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

Why? If leaving it in improves (1) your chances of it going in, and (2) a shorter putt if it doesn't go in, why would you pull it?

It doesn't necessarily improve your chances of it going in. The only thing it may help is a putt that is way too fast hit the pin and sit beside the hole... However you could have a faster putt that would still go in hitting the back of the cup but is too fast with a pin and bounces off. I'm not trying to have a shorter putt I'm trying to make the one I have.

Either way I don't think it makes much of a difference, it's probably more of a personal comfort thing. But I will say if you watch the pro's they pull it for chips close to the green and putts from the fringe.   

[iacas]

25 minutes ago, BirdieLife3 said:

It doesn't necessarily improve your chances of it going in.

It pretty much does (improve your chances). Only in the case where the ball is going very slowly does the "help" drop to near zero, but at those slow speeds the ball won't hit the flagstick hard enough to be kept out, either.

25 minutes ago, BirdieLife3 said:

The only thing it may help is a putt that is way too fast hit the pin and sit beside the hole.

No, not just way too fast. Even putts rolling three feet past the hole are aided by a flagstick being in the cup.

Look at how small the hole effectively gets at 3' past. It's not even 1/3 the effective width of the hole.

The ball hitting the flagstick deadens the speed, effectively making the hole wider.

So let's imagine a ball that's hit 3' past the hole speed that hits the hole 0.75" off center. It won't go in at that speed (the hole would have to be 1.5" wide, effectively, for that putt to be holed). That ball will hit the flagstick pretty solidly:

Here's how the physics works out in the above case:

• The ball is going just a hair too fast to fall into the cup on the line it's on without the flagstick. The distance of the red arrow (plus the blue arrow before it) is too short, at 3' past speed, for the ball to fall.
• The blue arrow is definitely shorter than the red arrow (plus the blue portion). The flagstick does "take up some room" in the hole. If the ball somehow had the same speed, it would miss even more because the effective crossing distance has been shortened.
• The thing is, the ball loses a much higher percentage of its speed than the distance of its journey across the cup is shortened. That is why the flagstick being in helps you. At 0.75" away from center, the hole is effectively about 3.92" in diameter - but we need closer to 3.98 for the ball to fall. The blue arrow is only about 3.2" across, but for the majority of that distance the ball is going at a greatly reduced speed. 1' past capture speed means the hole has to be 2.6" wide, and 1.3" off center, the hole is still 3.3" across. More than enough speed.

If you're taking the really basic high-school level version of physics, you'd probably have the ball going almost 90° left here. Long story short - and I checked with enough people with enough degrees and verified with my own testing last fall that I'm comfortable with this - things like ball speed, roll, the flagstick moving when it's struck, the location of the CG of the ball, etc. mean the ball will not rebound like an elastic collision with a fixed flagstick, but much shallower. Pool players are familiar with the "half ball hit" and the 30° rule, for example.)

Also, not all flagsticks are 0.5" thick. Some are 0.350" in diameter. Usually tournament flagsticks are 0.5", though.

25 minutes ago, BirdieLife3 said:

However you could have a faster putt that would still go in hitting the back of the cup but is too fast with a pin and bounces off. I'm not trying to have a shorter putt I'm trying to make the one I have.

That doesn't really happen.

Look at the graphics above. A ball going as little as 7' past the cup won't have very good odds of going in. Even with the flagstick reducing the effective diameter of the cup from 4.25" to about 2.07" (4.25=0.5-1.68), the ball speed taken off is often far greater than the effective narrowing of the hole width.

Since we're basically talking about half the distance - and really 1/4 because the first 1.035" will be at the same normal speed), if the ball speed is scrubbed to 1/4 the initial speed, the ball has a better chance of going in with the flagstick.

Never mind that this is pretty much as fast as a ball can be rolling and still be holed at all, only if it's dead center in the cup with a slightly higher back edge.

So if you're off by as little as 1/4" the ball won't go in and won't even stop very close to the hole. Miss by 1/2" and the ball will barely bounce off the back of the cup, still rolling out to 5' away or so.

Let's assume an even distribution around the cup, and let's imagine that NONE of the putts that strike the flagstick go in (untrue), but they all sit close to the cup for a tap-in. You're still going to average fewer putts (2) than you will without the flagstick in the hole, even if we also allow you to consider putts hit within the center 1/4" of the hole as being holed.

In other words, even if we make the situation as extreme as possible to support the idea of pulling the flagstick out, the numbers don't work out in favor.

Are there times when the flagstick can keep a ball out that would have gone in? Yeah. But they're really, really, really rare, because flagsticks tend to scrub far more than 1/4 of the speed from a ball. Only thick (0.5"), bouncy, and firmly planted flagsticks fail to scrub > 1/4 of the ball's speed.

25 minutes ago, BirdieLife3 said:

Either way I don't think it makes much of a difference, it's probably more of a personal comfort thing. But I will say if you watch the pro's they pull it for chips close to the green and putts from the fringe.   

It makes more of a difference the better the player you are… because you're more likely to hit the ball near the hole and thus more likely to take advantage of leaving the flagstick in the hole.

---

Executive summary for those who don't want to read the above: the math and physics work out to prove that you should leave the flagstick in the hole when the rules allow if you want the advantage. The only time to remove the flagstick is if it's blowing around (and can thus contribute its own energy to the collision) or leaning so much that the ball won't fit.

[dedalus101]

Iacas is going to a lot of trouble to convince everyone to always keep the flagstick in.  I can appreciate his commitment and his opinion and but beg to differ in one small regard and that is when a good putter who is not going to blast the ball three feet or more past the hole has a makeable putt from off the green. Yes, conceivably I might have a hand spasm and hit the putt too hard but for many golfers it is not all that difficult to cozy the ball up with a couple feet. In those situations the flagstick is both unnecessary and  potentially (yes rarely but we have all seen it happen) an obstacle. And yes i know Pro Golfers can be really dumb but you sure see a lot of them pulling the flagstick when they are lining up makeable putts from off the green so lets try not to be too overly insistent in my way or the highway.

[iacas]

35 minutes ago, dedalus101 said:

Iacas is going to a lot of trouble to convince everyone to always keep the flagstick in.  I can appreciate his commitment and his opinion and but beg to differ in one small regard and that is when a good putter who is not going to blast the ball three feet or more past the hole has a makeable putt from off the green.

You've repeatedly ignored the very basic logic I'm about to lay out yet again: If your ball is going so slowly that it's not going so slowly that it's not going to go even 3' past the hole, the flagstick can't possibly kick the ball out of the hole. At even 2' past speed, the ball is traveling so slowly and the flagstick, again, will take off so much speed that it can't really kick out of the hole at all.

You're just arguing with physics now. You're not disagreeing with my opinion anymore.

Let's say you hit it 2' past speed but not dead in the middle of the cup, but instead, 1" off-center (0.95 is the effective holeable width at that speed). That's pretty good distance control. Guess what? The diagram looks something like this:

Now remember, that red line is too fast, 1" from center, to go into the cup without the flagstick there. That putt, though, with the flagstick, barely shortens the distance across the hole, while scrubbing plenty of speed from the ball to let it drop enough to fall in.

Again, even with 2' past speed, the flagstick only really helps you.

35 minutes ago, dedalus101 said:

Yes, conceivably I might have a hand spasm

Irrelevant. The faster you hit the putt the more the flagstick helps you. At a speed that barely gets the ball to the front of the cup, the flagstick doesn't help you at all - it's 0% help. At every speed past that, the amount it helps you increases.

24 minutes ago, dedalus101 said:

Yes, conceivably I might have a hand spasm and hit the putt too hard but for many golfers it is not all that difficult to cozy the ball up with a couple feet.

I used the "couple of feet" example above. 2' past speed. The math supports leaving the flagstick in if you wish to increase your chances of making the putt.

24 minutes ago, dedalus101 said:

In those situations the flagstick is both unnecessary and  potentially (yes rarely but we have all seen it happen) an obstacle. And yes i know Pro Golfers can be really dumb but you sure see a lot of them pulling the flagstick when they are lining up makeable putts from off the green so lets try not to be too overly insistent in my way or the highway.

I'm not insisting you do anything.

I'm simply sharing the math and the physics behind it.

Do what you want.

---

As I said above, the flagstick kills more speed from the ball than the amount by which it reduces the effective width of the hole. That's all it boils down to.

That's why I recommend players leave the flagstick in the hole except in the two cases I've said many times.

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, dedalus101 said:

Iacas is going to a lot of trouble to convince everyone to always keep the flagstick in.  I can appreciate his commitment and his opinion and but beg to differ in one small regard and that is when a good putter who is not going to blast the ball three feet or more past the hole has a makeable putt from off the green. Yes, conceivably I might have a hand spasm and hit the putt too hard but for many golfers it is not all that difficult to cozy the ball up with a couple feet. In those situations the flagstick is both unnecessary and  potentially (yes rarely but we have all seen it happen) an obstacle. And yes i know Pro Golfers can be really dumb but you sure see a lot of them pulling the flagstick when they are lining up makeable putts from off the green so lets try not to be too overly insistent in my way or the highway.

At this stage, @iacas has referenced studies done by others, referenced some studies he's done personally, and explained in significant detail some of the physics involved in the issue.  The consistent conclusion is that leaving the flagstick in whenever its permissible to do so produces statistically improved outcomes, as compared to removing it.  This doesn't mean that the stick will never deflect a ball that would otherwise be holed, only that over time you'll end up ahead by leaving it in.  

In response you have used anecdotal experience, and observations of touring professionals, to try to convince us that leaving the stick in is detrimental.  Do you have any kind of study that supports that conclusion?  Can you explain how the physics work?  What I keep finding out, in life, as well as in golf, is that the "conventional wisdom" isn't always right, and I think this is one of those cases.  

But really, how often does this matter?  How many holes are cut within 15 feet or so (what I'd call a make-able putt) of the fringe?  On those holes, how many times do you hit a shot within a foot or two of the green, on that close side?  I'd guess that this circumstance doesn't come up more than once every 2 or 3 rounds of golf.  From that range, how many times does even a good player roll his putt over the hole?  Strokes gained stats suggest that a pro will make just one putt our of 5 to 7  (20% to 14%) from 16 to 20 feet. Really, we're talking about hitting the stick with a "make-able" putt one every 10 or 20 rounds of golf, maybe even more rarely than that.  

I don't think anyone has said its "my way or the highway", we're just convinced by the data.  If we're playing a match, and you choose the lower-percentage choice, more power to you.  I'll take every edge I can get.

And welcome to The Sand Trap, I hope you'll become involved with some of the discussions that don't involve the flagstick.  

[14ledo81]

I think I have it now.

@dedalus101 is trying to say that the leaving the flag in does not help on 100% of putts that are hit short of the hole.....

[David in FL]

6 minutes ago, 14ledo81 said:

I think I have it now.

@dedalus101 is trying to say that the leaving the flag in does not help on 100% of putts that are hit short of the hole.....

And 100% of those that completely miss the hole...  

Between the two, that's 200%.  Math doesn't lie!

[dchoye]

I take the pin out because I used to seeing just hole  The pin can be a distraction for me as sometimes I feel like I will "aim" at the pin instead of the hole and hit the putt too hard 

For longer putts and this applies to putting from the fringe, when I can't see the hole that well I will leave the pin + tending.