Modernized Rules Discussion: Areas of the Course

[Fourputt]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

Maybe.

The point I'm making with that is that before, really, only OB and water hazards were marked properly.

Now, ANY area can be marked, and you may not know what the status of the area is until you get near to it. Before, if it was water, you were pretty sure it was a water hazard.

Now, they could mark an area of tall rough as a penalty area if they wanted to.

I should get into the red stake manufacturing business.

I can see a run on red stakes and spray paint in the near future.

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, Braivo said:

Yes, that is what I was picturing when you made your comment about a provisional. I agree that trees "in play" are still in play. Also, this picture perfectly illustrates the type of area I see the most time being wasted in a recreational round. Dropping here will be a big gain IMO. 

Really?

Who looks for their ball in that shit? It's just lost. It shouldn't take any time now. Play a provisional and on the off chance it is on the edge and you find it, cool. Otherwise, continue with the provisional.

I think this will lead to too many areas being marked, and your suggestion that ALL tree areas be marked is still ridiculous IMO.

[boogielicious]

6 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

I can see a run on red stakes and spray paint in the near future.

Invest in Krylon Stock.

[Braivo]

53 minutes ago, iacas said:

Really?

Who looks for their ball in that shit? It's just lost. It shouldn't take any time now. Play a provisional and on the off chance it is on the edge and you find it, cool. Otherwise, continue with the provisional.

I think this will lead to too many areas being marked, and your suggestion that ALL tree areas be marked is still ridiculous IMO.

I never said ALL tree areas should be marked. Wooded areas that surround the golf course, yes. I see plenty of people looking for their balls in shit like that, happens all the time, but then again I am stuck playing on weekends at muni courses so I am not sure many rule changes will change what happens there. 

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, Braivo said:

I never said ALL tree areas should be marked.

?

2 hours ago, Braivo said:

All tree lined areas should be red hazards, no doubt about it.

You lost me.

[Braivo]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

?

You lost me.

Ok, I wasn't very clear at all. My bad. I was picturing something like this, common for the courses I play in Northern Michigan. I am saying that beyond the tree line should be marked as a hazard because 1) the forest isn't so dense that you can't walk in there, so people spend FOREVER searching for balls there and 2) you won't get anything more than a pitch out even if you find your ball. 

[Rulesman]

Next, someone will be suggesting the trees should be felled. That'll save on red paint

[DeadMan]

I am not a fan of the flagstick rule. It's pretty much the only thing I dislike about these simplified rules. I think it gives you an advantage to be able to leave it in, and I'm not a huge fan of altering the game in that way. On the other hand, I'm sure people said this about stymies in the past, so I could live with it.

I like the new penalty area idea. A lot of courses already do that, and I think it makes sense to do in limited circumstances. That's key, to me. I hope they issue some more guidance about what can/should be marked as a penalty area. I'm worried courses will shortcut maintenance by just marking areas they could cut and make playable by just making it a penalty area instead. A course I play on frequently has a lot of native grass, but they only let it go in a few areas. I'm worried they'd just completely let it go and mark it a penalty area instead, which is less than ideal.

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

I am not a fan of the flagstick rule. It's pretty much the only thing I dislike about these simplified rules. I think it gives you an advantage to be able to leave it in, and I'm not a huge fan of altering the game in that way. On the other hand, I'm sure people said this about stymies in the past, so I could live with it.

They didn't, because stymies was a match play only thing.

I don't expect the flagstick rule to make the final cut. I'd be flabbergasted if it did. They allowed leaving the flagstick in back in the day, and took it out after not too many years… it's an advantage, and changes the game of golf.

11 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

I like the new penalty area idea. A lot of courses already do that, and I think it makes sense to do in limited circumstances. That's key, to me. I hope they issue some more guidance about what can/should be marked as a penalty area. I'm worried courses will shortcut maintenance by just marking areas they could cut and make playable by just making it a penalty area instead. A course I play on frequently has a lot of native grass, but they only let it go in a few areas. I'm worried they'd just completely let it go and mark it a penalty area instead, which is less than ideal.

Or just marking any area that people hit into frequently as a penalty area.

So if you do try to go in there to find your ball, there will be 50 others.

But yeah, I hope that's not over-used. I don't like the red/yellow. Just get rid of two areas and have one area. Why have two? I get that with yellow they still want you to navigate the hazard… but there aren't many times where that's going to be the case - if you hit a tree on the far side of a hazard, or clear the line and your ball rolls back in on a line. Like 15 at Augusta… if your ball rolls back down the slope, you could ostensibly play it from the green side instead of behind the hazard if they were just all red… but I could also argue that you DID navigate the hazard. Your ball was over the hazard. It just rolled back into it. Ditto if your ball hits a tree on the far side and bounces back into the (yellow) penalty area.

[Fourputt]

11 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

.......................... I don't like the red/yellow. Just get rid of two areas and have one area. Why have two? I get that with yellow they still want you to navigate the hazard… but there aren't many times where that's going to be the case - if you hit a tree on the far side of a hazard, or clear the line and your ball rolls back in on a line. Like 15 at Augusta… if your ball rolls back down the slope, you could ostensibly play it from the green side instead of behind the hazard if they were just all red… but I could also argue that you DID navigate the hazard. Your ball was over the hazard. It just rolled back into it. Ditto if your ball hits a tree on the far side and bounces back into the (yellow) penalty area.

Or in one famous instance, hits the flagstick and bounces back... that's happened several times on the tour, not just the one that involved Tiger at the Masters.  I'd be okay with eliminating the yellow, but some would say that it would diminish the impact on certain holes.  As mentioned above at the 15th at Augusta, but also #12 and #13 might also be affected by that, and #17 at Sawgrass would also be impacted.  

At Sawgrass, a ball bouncing off the back of 17 may or may not be in a position to allow a measured drop - it depends on the relative location of the hole to where the ball crosses the margin.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Or in one famous instance, hits the flagstick and bounces back... that's happened several times on the tour, not just the one that involved Tiger at the Masters.  I'd be okay with eliminating the yellow, but some would say that it would diminish the impact on certain holes.  As mentioned above at the 15th at Augusta, but also #12 and #13 might also be affected by that, and #17 at Sawgrass would also be impacted.  

At Sawgrass, a ball bouncing off the back of 17 may or may not be in a position to allow a measured drop - it depends on the relative location of the hole to where the ball crosses the margin.

True. Good points.

More thought on this for me.

[Rulesman]

10 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

 

At Sawgrass, a ball bouncing off the back of 17 may or may not be in a position to allow a measured drop - it depends on the relative location of the hole to where the ball crosses the margin.

Isn't there a dropping zone there?

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

Isn't there a dropping zone there?

But why would you use it if you got to treat it like a red penalty area and drop on the fringe?

Keeping that yellow means you won't have a situation where two balls, a foot apart where they crossed the line, are in a situation where one can be dropped no closer and the other can't be.

[Fourputt]

6 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

Isn't there a dropping zone there?

 

1 minute ago, iacas said:

But why would you use it if you got to treat it like a red penalty area and drop on the fringe?

Exactly.  If I can drop on the island, then you can bet that's what I'll do, even if the location means that I have to stand on one foot to play my next shot.

[Big C]

26 minutes ago, iacas said:

I don't expect the flagstick rule to make the final cut. I'd be flabbergasted if it did. They allowed leaving the flagstick in back in the day, and took it out after not too many years… it's an advantage, and changes the game of golf.

It is certainly an advantage. But is pulling the flagstick on the green somehow fundamental to the game of golf? To me, it's not. 

So will it make the game different? Yes. But will it alter one of the core tenants of the game? Not really. To me it seems like one of those changes that will cause an uproar for the first year (if it sticks). Then everyone will get used to putting with the flagstick in and life will go on. 

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, Big C said:

It is certainly an advantage. But is pulling the flagstick on the green somehow fundamental to the game of golf? To me, it's not.

It is to me. For the most part, we play it into a hole, not a hole with a blocking/deflecting/dampening device in it.

Plus again different courses can have different flagsticks with different materials that play differently. A hole always pretty much plays the same.

8 minutes ago, Big C said:

So will it make the game different? Yes. But will it alter one of the core tenants of the game? Not really. 

I don't agree. I think it will. We play into a hole. This isn't disc golf.

8 minutes ago, Big C said:

To me it seems like one of those changes that will cause an uproar for the first year (if it sticks). Then everyone will get used to putting with the flagstick in and life will go on. 

No thanks. Flagsticks can lean, too, and why should a player 180° from you have an advantage while you have a disadvantage?

[DeadMan]

40 minutes ago, iacas said:

They didn't, because stymies was a match play only thing.

Huh, I had no idea it was only match play. I guess I thought it was both.

I agree with you, by the way, that it seems superfluous to have both yellow and red hazards. But I do get why you would keep them.

[Big C]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

No thanks. Flagsticks can lean, too, and why should a player 180° from you have an advantage while you have a disadvantage?

If a player feels that leaving the flagstick in works to his disadvantage, he has the option to remove it. 

As to the rule itself, I agree with you that it is unlikely to make the final cut. But it won't bother me much if it does.