Modernized Rules Discussion: Areas of the Course

[iacas]

53 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

Well, that is a reason but not one that has been discussed.

I think it's been discussed.

53 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

The main reasons it is not liked here as best I can remember: 1) It makes putting easier, 2) it may actually slow down the pace of play.

Yep. Pretty much.

Look, I'll put it this way…

• If the first is true (it makes putting easier), pace of play will be fine or improved. But you then have the problem that putting will be easier.
• If the second is not true, and it turns out that putting is basically the same with or without the flagstick, then I imagine the pace of play will actually be worse because players will be taking the flagstick out and putting it back in based on what they think is advantageous to them.
• If it turns out that the flagstick is actually a disadvantage (to be clear, I haven't heard anyone really say this, except those like @dedalus101 who only have their biased memories to back their claims), then pace of play will basically be exactly as it is now.

So ruling out the third, either:

• Golf got easier, or
• This proposed rules change will actually slow golf down.

[MuniGrit]

It is available to everyone. It would be interesting to see who would be willing to leave it in and attempt ram a 6 footer in to win a major.

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, MuniGrit said:

It is available to everyone. It would be interesting to see who would be willing to leave it in and attempt ram a 6 footer in to win a major.

It doesn't hurt you to leave it in. I'd suggest they leave it in and putt the same way they would otherwise, maybe with just a little more speed to ensure that it holds its line better.

This topic is more about the theory. I'll move your post to the "areas of the course" rules topic.

Yes, it would obviously be available to everyone if it was in the rules. The points that remain are:

• If it offers an advantage, the USGA/R&A are wrong. And better putters are going to be able to use that advantage more than poor putters.
• If it offers no advantage beyond the purely psychological, then some players will want it in, some out, and it will actually slow play.

[cutchemist42]

20 hours ago, No Mulligans said:

Well, that is a reason but not one that has been discussed.

The main reasons it is not liked here as best I can remember: 1) It makes putting easier, 2) it may actually slow down the pace of play.

Do you play any other sports that went through similar rule changes? I posted my example above as a goalie. Any thought to that example?

[iacas]

1 hour ago, cutchemist42 said:

Do you play any other sports that went through similar rule changes? I posted my example above as a goalie. Any thought to that example?

I don't know what you're talking about with a "goalie." We're on page 13 here… a refresher? I didn't see anything from you on page 12 about a goalie.

[cutchemist42]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

I don't know what you're talking about with a "goalie." We're on page 13 here… a refresher? I didn't see anything from you on page 12 about a goalie.

Finger slip on cell maybe, I thought i was responding to no mulligans in the "putting with flag in" thread. He asked me if I felt it unfair and I told him it personally doesnt bug me as I lived through a more drastic change in hockey and accepted it then.

Edited March 26, 2017 by cutchemist42

[iacas]

1 hour ago, cutchemist42 said:

Finger slip on cell maybe, I thought i was responding to no mulligans in the "putting with flag in" thread. He asked me if I felt it unfair and I told him it personally doesnt bug me as I lived through a more drastic change in hockey and accepted it then.

Okay.

I moved some posts here because that topic is meant to discuss the actual theories, hypotheses, etc. Not to discuss it generally.

[Groucho Valentine]

So what if keeping the stick in helps players make more putts or not? Is the golf world going to end either way? What a silly debate this is.. 

[boogielicious]

4 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

So what if keeping the stick in helps players make more putts or not? Is the golf world going to end either way? What a silly debate this is.. 

The golf world won't end if people use a foot wedge either. Should we allow that?  

It is a rules discussion. I don't think it is silly.

[Groucho Valentine]

8 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

The golf world won't end if people use a foot wedge either. Should we allow that?  

It is a rules discussion. I don't think it is silly.

Thats a ridiculous analogy. Was there a scourge of players cheating to more putts by leaving the flagstick in that i didn't know about? Because believe me, if you want to make that 5 footer with 20 bucks on the line, you gotta leave the flagstick in.  

You're talking about a deliberate act of cheating vs some rule the USGA adjusted.

[boogielicious]

3 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Thats a ridiculous analogy. Was there a scourge of players cheating to more putts by leaving the flagstick in that i didn't know about? Because believe me, if you want to make that 5 footer with 20 bucks on the line, you gotta leave the flagstick in.  

You're talking about a deliberate act of cheating vs some rule the USGA adjusted.

They changed the rule in 1968 to make you take the flag stick out because they thought it was an advantage. Now they don't think it is. Seems conflicting. that is why we are discussing.

[Groucho Valentine]

19 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

They changed the rule in 1968 to make you take the flag stick out because they thought it was an advantage. Now they don't think it is. Seems conflicting. that is why we are discussing.

I get that. I just don't think it matters either way. Saying you could hit a removed flagstick on the green without penalty would be something. Leaving it in or not is inconsequential. Some putts might be helped, others wont. 

Edited March 28, 2017 by Groucho Valentine

[onthehunt526]

I would be okay with the way the rule was pre-1968... Sure, if you want to leave the flagstick in for long putts say outside 30 feet fine, hell I'd be okay with 15 feet, but inside of the length of the flagstick take the stick out.

[colin007]

i am in favor of the rule change because it will help me.

[mvmac]

2 hours ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Is the golf world going to end either way? What a silly debate this is.. 

It changes the nature of the game, from a sport in which we play into a uniform hole into one in which we bang the ball against a deflecting/dampening object.

1 hour ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Leaving it in or not is inconsequential. Some putts might be helped, others wont. 

It does make a difference. Did you read the OP or see the videos I posted?

The flagstick offers an advantage: it dampens the speed of the ball, allowing the ball more time to fall or killing speed so it stays close to the hole. 

[Groucho Valentine]

1 hour ago, mvmac said:

It changes the nature of the game, from a sport in which we play into a uniform hole into one in which we bang the ball against a deflecting/dampening object.

It does make a difference. Did you read the OP or see the videos I posted?

The flagstick offers an advantage: it dampens the speed of the ball, allowing the ball more time to fall or killing speed so it stays close to the hole. 

I read all the posts on the other page.  If you can hit a putt in a way that uses a quarter inch diameter flagstick as an aid, then i would call that a skill and you might deserve to have that putt. And it doesn't answer why leaving it in and using it as an aid is even a problem to begin with. If it helps some players make a few more and enjoy the game more, so what? 

Edited March 28, 2017 by Groucho Valentine

[Fourputt]

2 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

I would be okay with the way the rule was pre-1968... Sure, if you want to leave the flagstick in for long putts say outside 30 feet fine, hell I'd be okay with 15 feet, but inside of the length of the flagstick take the stick out.

That would be yet another imprecise measuring device.  I've seen flagsticks 10 feet tall.  Since they are proposing the elimination of "clublengths", it would be inconsistent to then bring in another variable measurement.

[mvmac]

1 hour ago, Groucho Valentine said:

And it doesn't answer why leaving it in and using it as an aid is even a problem to begin with.

Again the problem comes from the potential to change the nature of the game. Also it could actually slow play down.

1 hour ago, Groucho Valentine said:

If it helps some players make a few more and enjoy the game more, so what? 

It speaks to the equitability of the game. Good putters will have a huge advantage over poor putters. Bigger gap than there is now.