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Modernized Rules Discussion: Areas of the Course

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Then you should understand the need for background information and an explanation of the author's stance. In those cases, less can definitely be less if there isn't enough.

Thanks, and I agree. However, if the reader gives up halfway into the screed, all is lost. The USGA Rules organization knows the data and the arguments and doesn't need any background. They're looking for new ideas and information.

I'm a fan of Erik and this site. But like you, I've been here long enough to know his style of writing. Many's the time I've started one of his posts only to abandon it a quarter of the way through when he's changed the subject, in an effort to reply to yet another poster, for the third time.

One thing at a time. And in this case, less is more. Maybe three paragraphs is one or two too many.

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Just now, Asheville said:

One thing at a time. And in this case, less is more. Maybe three paragraphs is one or two too many.

1

What part, specifically, do you think has too much. I went back to the site again and could still read the front page, the why section, and the background information section in under 5 minutes.

1 minute ago, Asheville said:

The USGA Rules organization knows the data and the arguments and doesn't need any background. They're looking for new ideas and information.

 

Doesn't matter, the USGA isn't the only group of people who will read it. To convince people who haven't seen the data, you have to provide it. It's not meant for only the eyes of the USGA.

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26 minutes ago, Aflighter said:

Im  not a believer

I always love when people say they don't "believe" in facts…

We're not quite at the level of this being a fact, but… we're close, and either way this isn't a matter of "belief," but of fact.

26 minutes ago, Aflighter said:

Im  not a believer in the flagstick helping you make putts unless you hit it directly center.

Scroll up and read some previous posts. Physics would say that you're wrong about that. There's not a lot of room to miss the flagstick. The ball will contact the flagstick if the center of the golf ball is anywhere within about the center 2.2 inches of the hole. Outside that - the outer 1 inch - and the ball won't go in unless it's traveling very slowly. The flagstick won't help you (nor will it hurt you) outside that center 2.2 inches (and that's just center of the ball to center of the ball).

26 minutes ago, Aflighter said:

I dont ever want the flagstick in putting or chipping because I feel  the hole is bigger without a rod stuck in it.

Then you're costing yourself shots.

26 minutes ago, Aflighter said:

Ever notice how Mickelson likes chipping with flagstick out?

Tour pros aren't physicists. The one who studied physics the most…

Note… the announcer is not a physicist either.

26 minutes ago, Aflighter said:

I dont think hes doing it to make it harder.

He might not be doing it to make it harder, but it is.

Go here: 

 Read. Enjoy.

8 minutes ago, Asheville said:

Thanks, and I agree. However, if the reader gives up halfway into the screed, all is lost.

@Asheville, dude, c'mon.

https://flagstickrule.com - 149 words (reading level: 8th grade)
https://flagstickrule.com/what-is-the-rule/ - 241 words (reading level: 9th grade)
https://flagstickrule.com/why-it-is-bad/ - 254 words in the first part with the important objection (10th grade)
https://flagstickrule.com/background-info/ - 480 words, the majority of which are Pelz's.

22 minutes ago, Asheville said:

The USGA Rules organization knows the data and the arguments and doesn't need any background.

What on earth makes you think that?

They said that the flagstick in offers no advantage. They clearly don't know the "data" and the "arguments." They've focused almost entirely on pace of pay for this rule. They basically came out and said that PGA Tour players would never leave the flagstick in when putting because they have caddies.

It hasn't dawned on them that they've effectively made the hole about an inch larger, and made putting much easier.

22 minutes ago, Asheville said:

I'm a fan of Erik and this site. But like you, I've been here long enough to know his style of writing. Many's the time I've started one of his posts only to abandon it a quarter of the way through…

If you abandon that site a quarter of the way through your attention span is, what, a minute?

22 minutes ago, Asheville said:

One thing at a time. And in this case, less is more. Maybe three paragraphs is one or two too many.

Okay. I'll redo the site. How's this for all of the content on the site:

"Yo, USGA/R&A - the proposed flagstick rule sucks. It will make putting easier. Peace out."

:-P

20 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

What part, specifically, do you think has too much. I went back to the site again and could still read the front page, the why section, and the background information section in under 5 minutes.

Doesn't matter, the USGA isn't the only group of people who will read it. To convince people who haven't seen the data, you have to provide it. It's not meant for only the eyes of the USGA.

I'm with you @Pretzel. I think it's fine.

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Dear USGA Rules Committee,

Pelz's data suggests this proposal will lower scores. No one knows by how much. Do you think it's worth it?

Love,

Charlie

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On 3/2/2017 at 9:08 PM, mvmac said:

Ok here's my video testing out the flagstick staying in the hole. All the putts I hit are in the video except for the first 3 because they weren't hit firmly enough and one sequence that where I missed 3 in a row (angle was basically a duplicate of my first sequence and one of the misses is featured below). 

 

Some of you guys asked if the putts would have gone in without the flagstick. Myself and @iacas felt most would have missed but I still wanted to do an update to test it out.

I did screw up a bit in the videos below by being a couple feet too far away from the hole.

Trying to hit these putts with a capture speed 4-5' PAST the hole (about where the flagstick is on the ground). Watching the video, some putts I just flat out missed, I hit a lot of putts in the middle of the hole that didn't go in. One of the putts caught the right edge and wouldn't have gone in regardless of whether the flagstick was in or not.

Now with the flagstick in, again trying to do the same thing with the capture speed. The 6th putt I hit too firm, well past my intended distance I wanted past the hole.

By no means a definitive study but I still very much believe the flagstick being in is a huge advantage. Like I did with the last video/post, I encourage other to test it out for themselves and feel free to post and share your results.

PS, I guess when I do these videos I have to wear a green shirt ;-)

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Thank you for the extra videos @mvmac. I was reading this thread yesterday and am firmly on the "has to go" side of the the proposed putting w/ flagstick change. As luck would have it, though, I had a pitch today that was rolling fast but it was center cup and I just knew it would drop, especially with the pin in...instead, it hit the center of the stick, kicked right and lipped around and out of the hole, then stopped 2 inches away.

I assumed the cut spin from the pitch made the difference, something that obviously wouldn't be present in a putt, but none the less, thought I had found the exception to the rule. Until I watched your latest videos, that is.

My ball was rolling at least as fast as yours and probably would've popped out the back of the hole the same way yours did and stopped 6 inches away (or more) instead of 2. 

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10 hours ago, roamin said:

Thank you for the extra videos @mvmac. I was reading this thread yesterday and am firmly on the "has to go" side of the the proposed putting w/ flagstick change. As luck would have it, though, I had a pitch today that was rolling fast but it was center cup and I just knew it would drop, especially with the pin in...instead, it hit the center of the stick, kicked right and lipped around and out of the hole, then stopped 2 inches away.

Yeah, as you basically say below… I've found people are pretty bad at recognizing capture speed or how fast a ball is really rolling.

For example…

Both of those balls would have rolled 20-25' past the cup (we know because we played too much break a few times and the balls rolled that far past the cup), but if you asked most people they'd say 4 to 8 feet. Well, the people I asked said 4 to 8 feet, anyway.

My ball, for example, hit the BACK of the 8" cup. Matt's would have hit the back bottom corner had he not nailed the stick.

It's tough to gauge the speed of the ball going away from you. Even in the video, my putt (sideways) looks like it's going quite a bit faster than Matt's putt, but Matt's putt took about 44 frames to get to the front lip and mine took about 41 or 42, so it's not a big difference. A ball moving away from you is bound to look slower than one moving across your field of vision. This is where I think people's "experiences" (like @dedalus101's) are misleading - they see a ball pop out with the flagstick in, but fail to recognize that the ball was trucking along at 8' or 10' past capture speed or something, and so their memory is "the flagstick kept my ball out."

10 hours ago, roamin said:

I assumed the cut spin from the pitch made the difference, something that obviously wouldn't be present in a putt, but none the less, thought I had found the exception to the rule. Until I watched your latest videos, that is.

Once the ball started rolling it had no cut spin. It was rolling.

10 hours ago, roamin said:

My ball was rolling at least as fast as yours and probably would've popped out the back of the hole the same way yours did and stopped 6 inches away (or more) instead of 2. 

Yep. Right on.

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9 hours ago, iacas said:

Once the ball started rolling it had no cut spin. It was rolling.

Duh. :8) Sounded great in my head, though. :-D

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It's not at all scientific, and it's barely above anecdotal, but I had two of my college kids putt 15 putts from 4.5' today on a putt with about 3% slope on a green stimping at about 11.5 to 12.

The flagstick was thinner but the holes are about 0.25" smaller too because the cup liner isn't recessed at all.

I gave the first kid three balls that I didn't count in between to "practice" hitting the ball firmly and without break. The second kid (a better putter) I just told him what to do.

They'd been putting, and have putted on this green all year (or two years in the case of the second player).

Kid # Flag In/Out? Made Percentage
1 (MP) Out 8 53.33
1 (MP) In 10 66.67
2 (RM) Out 10 66.67
2 (RM) In 12 80.00

Again, I'm not putting a lot of weight on this at all, but that's what I mean by "significant."

P.S. Almost all of their misses with the flagstick in were high because they remarked that it was tough to make themselves play so little break. They were hitting the putts with about 5-6' past capture speed.

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Wanted to post this here instead of this thread which is mostly for posting the results of the challenge.

15 hours ago, iacas said:

And I've had estimates by good putters that from five feet they can see making 90%+ with the flagstick in. One of those guys was @mvmac. (It's not just me who thinks this. @david_wedzik encouraged me to post the site flagstickrule.com). @NCGolfer. @mvmac. Great putters will eat this up.

Right, my initial estimation was 90%+ for a golfer who averages around 75% from 5 ft. A big part of my opinion is from the testing I've done on my own. Like I've said a few times, those short 3 ft putts are basically gimmes with the flagstick in. From 5ft I just seeing it being so much easier and I don't consider myself all that great a putter.

@Big C did bring up a good points. Yes, a less skilled putter won't benefit as much as a good putter but they will still benefit with the flagstick in than if it was left out.

16 hours ago, Big C said:

As a single digit handicapper, I am still capable of missing the hole entirely from 3 feet, let alone 4-5. It doesn't happen often, but it's not so rare that I can't pretend like the flagstick would be a cure all. 

That might be more true if you're trying to make those short ones with good capture speed, to me you're less likely to miss the hole if you just aim it there and hit it firm. Aiming can be an issue for many golfers but I'm mostly talking about the short ones where it won't be that far off.


I even think a poorer putter can get to the point where they figure out how to "bang in" a 3-4ft putt, the stroke won't have to require the same amount of skill as a normal short putting stroke. Could do a Stockton/Kuchar type method and just pop it in. 

 

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I'm not posting this in the other thread because it isn't from any actual testing (there is no grass growing anywhere around here to try and run a real experiment yet).  I pretty much do this every time on the practice green when warming up for a round.  

I start fairly focused on my comeback putts to set my feel for the round.  But after 10 minutes or so, I will start just banging the missed putts into the flagstick, and when I do that, I rarely miss from 5 feet and in.  Like Erik says, when I take the read out of the equation and hit straight or almost straight at the pin, my make ratio goes way up.  

It's not scientific, but my anecdotal results from years of doing this would certainly bear out the validity of the theory.

Edited by Fourputt

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I know my putts are going to go way up inside 5 feet. But if they change the rule, then I have no problem with it. It'll be the same for everyone. If you want to hurt your chances by taking out the stick then that's your fault.

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On March 22, 2017 at 2:06 PM, No Mulligans said:

I think it is likely to help the better putters than the average or poor putters.  Would you like the rule if it gave the better players more of an advantage than it gives you?

I'd like the rule better if it allowed me to lay the flagstick directly behind the hole when I'm putting.

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2 minutes ago, jetsknicks1 said:

I'd like the rule better if it allowed me to lay the flagstick directly behind the hole when I'm putting.

I've done that, in match play, when my opponent is in and I'm putting for a half. :-P

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51 minutes ago, jetsknicks1 said:

I'd like the rule better if it allowed me to lay the flagstick directly behind the hole when I'm putting.

Wouldn't two flagsticks, arranged in a V, with the vertex at the hole be better?

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So do you guys not like because it ruins how you'd look back historically on the numbers? Or for other reasons?

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4 hours ago, boogielicious said:

Wouldn't two flagsticks, arranged in a V, with the vertex at the hole be better?

I love the way you think. :beer:

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4 hours ago, cutchemist42 said:

So do you guys not like because it ruins how you'd look back historically on the numbers? Or for other reasons?

Well, that is a reason but not one that has been discussed.

The main reasons it is not liked here as best I can remember: 1) It makes putting easier, 2) it may actually slow down the pace of play.

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