Putting with the Flagstick In

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Buckeyebowman said:

Yes, higher handicappers leave a ton of putts short. So what will change if you leave the flagstick in? Are they all suddenly going to become Braveheart?

If they fear the come-back putt a bit less, they can hit the first putt a little harder.

1 minute ago, Buckeyebowman said:

And the caddie has to do with the fact that he tends the pin! He can keep it in the hole providing an "aiming point" for his player, and pull it when the ball gets close.

They're not going to tend the pin on a four-footer.

[Buckeyebowman]

It is heartwarming to know that you care about me so much that you will follow my responses so adroitly!

Yes, we hacks fear the come back putt, but not so much that we're willing to crush the first putt at the hole, even with the stick in it. You have numbers, I have observations, which is basically the same thing. I know guys who "play the break" and other guys who who try to "take the break out" of a short putt. Neither group that I play with is more successful than the other. Why? They're not that good!

And yes, the caddie will not tend the flag on a 4 footer! What else is new? We don't tend the flag on that length of putt either!

And in case you've missed it, I'm on your side. I want the flagstick out!

[mvmac]

2 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

Yes, we hacks fear the come back putt, but not so much that we're willing to crush the first putt at the hole, even with the stick in it.

You might be more willing to if you knew that running a putt 2-3 feet isn't a big deal because the come backer is much, much easier with the stick in.

2 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

You have numbers, I have observations, which is basically the same thing.

Not really, the numbers illustrate that golfers of all handicaps will be helped by keeping the stick in.

[mvmac]

On 3/22/2017 at 10:33 AM, iacas said:

Thus, the conclusion is simple: the flagstick dampens the speed of the ball by a significantly larger factor than it reduces the distance (and time) that the ball spends in free-fall.

 

[David in FL]

There was one chip that was even better.  Hit the pin about 2 feet up.  Would have gone 20 feet past easy.  Dropped to one inch.

[billchao]

8 hours ago, mvmac said:

 

Well that's a chip. We already know that the flag being in is advantageous to a chip. Clearly the ball rolling on the green from a chip is nothing like the ball rolling from being struck by a putter. Topspin and all that. 

That ball looked like it was going to be at least 20' past the hole. Good thing he wore his lucky glove.

[mvmac]

2 hours ago, billchao said:

Clearly the ball rolling on the green from a chip is nothing like the ball rolling from being struck by a putter. Topspin and all that. 

Hahaha right my bad. #BallSpinsInOneDirection

[Denny Bang Bang]

What I find strange, is they ban anchored putting, but now propose leaving the flagstick in...

[iacas]

On 4/2/2017 at 8:27 PM, billchao said:

Well that's a chip. We already know that the flag being in is advantageous to a chip.

Yeah, nobody would putt that firmly from closer range.

Dave and I have done tests and will share results soon.

[rpsetser]

Great post man.  My concerns lie more with course conditions rather than advantages/disadvantages to the golfers in involved.  Can you imagine the detrimental effect of the edges around the hole (the dirt/grass part above the top of the cup) with 200 people a day jamming their hands in between the flagstick and the hole to retrieve their balls?  Or the guy who gets in the habit of snatching the flagstick out with his ball still in the hole, just to avoid having to reach into the hole to get it, thereby pulling ground/cup/ball and all up slightly, forming a ridge around the hole.

 

Like i said.  I'm big on course conditions, and I foresee this being a problem.

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, rpsetser said:

Great post man.  My concerns lie more with course conditions rather than advantages/disadvantages to the golfers in involved.  Can you imagine the detrimental effect of the edges around the hole (the dirt/grass part above the top of the cup) with 200 people a day jamming their hands in between the flagstick and the hole to retrieve their balls?  Or the guy who gets in the habit of snatching the flagstick out with his ball still in the hole, just to avoid having to reach into the hole to get it, thereby pulling ground/cup/ball and all up slightly, forming a ridge around the hole.

Like i said.  I'm big on course conditions, and I foresee this being a problem.

True.

[jlbos83]

I play by myself a lot, so leaving the stick in had advantages for me, at times, just from the standpoint of saving time.  When I read of the proposed change, I played a couple rounds leaving it in, and I am pretty sure I putted worse.  I think my eyes and hand decided they didn't want to hit the stick.  So, on putts I don't expect to have a prayer on, I would leave it in, but anything I hope to make, I think I will still walk up and pull it.

[flopster]

On 3/27/2017 at 7:40 PM, iacas said:

If they fear the come-back putt a bit less, they can hit the first putt a little harder.

They're not going to tend the pin on a four-footer.

Seve had his caddie do this exact thing during a tournament, can't remember which one it was though. 

 

As far as the whole topic I have no doubt it will make putting easier on many levels, the flagstick will give a nice depth perception advantage and the stick will help with alignment and a backstop for shorter putts.

[alfriday]

I wonder if there was this much consternation when the rule giving a two stroke penalty for hitting the flag stick was implemented in 1968?  

[rehmwa]

I tried and experiment leaving it in and comparing to taking it out this weekend.  No discernable change in game or 'feel'.

I successfully choked my putts short both - with and without the flag - very consistently.

(I kinda hoped that leaving it in would free me up to hitting more confidently, thus getting me in the habit of putting more firmly.....alas)

Edited April 24, 2017 by rehmwa

[iacas]

[TropicalSandTrap]

Had a putt yesterday, 20 footer, had the flagstick in. Putt was dead center, good speed (a little hard but not cruising past the cup), hit the flag stick and kicked off just enough to sit on the edge of the cup. 

I can't stand putting with the flagstick in. And it's not like taking the stick or slows down the round. 

[iacas]

51 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

Had a putt yesterday, 20 footer, had the flagstick in. Putt was dead center, good speed (a little hard but not cruising past the cup), hit the flag stick and kicked off just enough to sit on the edge of the cup. 

I can't stand putting with the flagstick in. And it's not like taking the stick or slows down the round. 

The putt probably would not have gone in with the flagstick out. Or, the flagstick was leaning heavily.

Perception and reality are often misaligned.

Putting with the flagstick in offers an advantage, on the whole, particularly from longer range where distance control is tougher.