Rules Question… Ball on Tarp

[TN94z]

We ran into this situation playing yesterday where the course still had their tarps rolled up next to the green. These tarps would extend the width of the green and would be just about 3 ft off the edge of the green.

So if you hit your approach and it comes to rest on the tarp, what is the rule for relief?  Obviously, I know you cannot place the ball closer to the hole. Do you place it on the opposite side of the tarp where the tarp would be between you and the flag? Or can you find the nearest point of relief, no closer to the hole that gets you completely away from the tarp?  I had never ran into this situation in the past, and really did not know the best option.

[DaveP043]

In theory, I'd think that the tarp could be a movable obstruction, so in theory you'd lift the ball, move the tarp, and drop your ball as near as possible to its original position.  However, I bet that tarp is about as "movable" by a single normal human as the boulder that Tiger's fans moved  for him a few years back (I know, that was a loose impediment, but I hope you understand I'm talking about the difficulty of moving it).  So then the tarp is an immovable obstruction, and you'd drop the ball within two clublengths of the nearest point of complete relief for stance and swing.  The nearest point could be behind the tarp, or could be lateral, depending on the location of the ball and the angle in relation to the hole.   You wouldn't get to choose, you'd have to go to the nearest point of relief.

[David in FL]

41 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

In theory, I'd think that the tarp could be a movable obstruction, so in theory you'd lift the ball, move the tarp, and drop your ball as near as possible to its original position.  However, I bet that tarp is about as "movable" by a single normal human as the boulder that Tiger's fans moved  for him a few years back (I know, that was a loose impediment, but I hope you understand I'm talking about the difficulty of moving it).  So then the tarp is an immovable obstruction, and you'd drop the ball within two clublengths of the nearest point of complete relief for stance and swing.  The nearest point could be behind the tarp, or could be lateral, depending on the location of the ball and the angle in relation to the hole.   You wouldn't get to choose, you'd have to go to the nearest point of relief.

All true, except it's one club length from the NPR...

[DaveP043]

Just now, David in FL said:

All true, except it's one club length from the NPR...

I'm a dope, I know that, but apparently the communication lines between my brain and my fingers aren't completely secure.  Thanks for making it right.

[TN94z]

Gotcha. That's what I initially thought (but wasn't positive) and that's what we did. Yeah, this tarp was an immovable object. On top of being heavy, they had it staked down to the ground.  Thanks guys.

Edited March 30, 2017 by TN94z

[Rulesman]

2 hours ago, TN94z said:

I had never ran into this situation in the past, and really did not know the best option.

Thanks for posting a nice straightforward rules question. Like a breath of fresh air 

[David in FL]

5 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

Thanks for posting a nice straightforward rules question. Like a breath of fresh air 

True dat! 

[BamaWade]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

The nearest point could be behind the tarp, or could be lateral, depending on the location of the ball and the angle in relation to the hole.   You wouldn't get to choose, you'd have to go to the nearest point of relief.

Thinking back to ruling on DJ at last year's US Open w/the tower in his line (from much further out).  The tarp being on your playing line wouldn't fall under the same ruling, so that you could take relief completely laterally to give yourself a clear line?  I may be forgetting something important from that ruling, and honestly, I'd likely choose to play from behind the tarp (assuming my normal shot/trajectory would easily cover it +/- a little), unless it created a more difficult shot (say, a longer pitch to a short side), and dropping laterally with it completely out-of-line didn't give me an advantage (within the rules).  

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, BamaWade said:

Thinking back to ruling on DJ at last year's US Open w/the tower in his line (from much further out).  The tarp being on your playing line wouldn't fall under the same ruling, so that you could take relief completely laterally to give yourself a clear line?  I may be forgetting something important from that ruling, and honestly, I'd likely choose to play from behind the tarp (assuming my normal shot/trajectory would easily cover it +/- a little), unless it created a more difficult shot (say, a longer pitch to a short side), and dropping laterally with it completely out-of-line didn't give me an advantage (within the rules).  

Interesting that you refer to a camera tower, since that's a Temporary Immovable Obstruction, from which DJ got line of sight relief.  I'm guessing that the TIO rules are local rules in force only for the competition, since there's nothing in the regular rules of golf that address temporary obstructions.  Without such a local rule, the standard rules for immovable obstructions would apply, I believe.

[David in FL]

13 minutes ago, BamaWade said:

Thinking back to ruling on DJ at last year's US Open w/the tower in his line (from much further out).  The tarp being on your playing line wouldn't fall under the same ruling, so that you could take relief completely laterally to give yourself a clear line?  I may be forgetting something important from that ruling, and honestly, I'd likely choose to play from behind the tarp (assuming my normal shot/trajectory would easily cover it +/- a little), unless it created a more difficult shot (say, a longer pitch to a short side), and dropping laterally with it completely out-of-line didn't give me an advantage (within the rules).  

It's worth mentioning that you don't get to "choose".  There is generally only one unique spot on the course that is the nearest point of relief.  You must identify that   unique spot and then drop from there...

[BamaWade]

13 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Interesting that you refer to a camera tower, since that's a Temporary Immovable Obstruction, from which DJ got line of sight relief.  I'm guessing that the TIO rules are local rules in force only for the competition, since there's nothing in the regular rules of golf that address temporary obstructions.  Without such a local rule, the standard rules for immovable obstructions would apply, I believe.

Ahh--thanks--I knew I was forgetting something important.  I guess I was considering TIO's to be subjective and not just in tournaments (say landscaping equipment, etc.).  I should probably look up the rule on this one.  Even down in AL, our club still has the tarps beside the greens, albeit it they are folded into roughly box shapes ~5x5' or so.  I had a long par 3 approach with my 4H last evening just about hit one, but carried it.  Was wondering how to play it if it were behind the tarp.

Edit:  Looks like the tarps could legally be defined as TIOs, if deemed by the course/committee.  Could be that my club has that defined and I just haven't seen.

Edited March 30, 2017 by BamaWade

[jkelley9]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

In theory, I'd think that the tarp could be a movable obstruction, so in theory you'd lift the ball, move the tarp, and drop your ball as near as possible to its original position.  However, I bet that tarp is about as "movable" by a single normal human as the boulder that Tiger's fans moved  for him a few years back (I know, that was a loose impediment, but I hope you understand I'm talking about the difficulty of moving it).  So then the tarp is an immovable obstruction, and you'd drop the ball within two clublengths of the nearest point of complete relief for stance and swing.  The nearest point could be behind the tarp, or could be lateral, depending on the location of the ball and the angle in relation to the hole.   You wouldn't get to choose, you'd have to go to the nearest point of relief.

Wow I just youtube'd that and that was amazing! hahahaha. So awesome. I couldn't hear what they were saying in the video since I was at work but it was cool to watch nonetheless.

[BamaWade]

31 minutes ago, BamaWade said:

Edit:  Looks like the tarps could legally be defined as TIOs, if deemed by the course/committee.  Could be that my club has that defined and I just haven't seen.

Interestingly, in my case last night, my ball carried the tarp but rolled into a runoff rut where landscaping pine needles around the base off a tree had washed out from recent heavy rains.  The rut was just wide enough for the ball, but ~3" deep, bordering sod, so I didn't see it until almost directly over it.  It wasn't marked as ground under repair, but unsure of the correct rule, I played it as an abnormal ground condition (burrow, washout, etc.), took <1 clublength NPR drop, pitched back up onto the green and 2-putted to card a bogey-4.  

In looking it up on the USGA site, looks like it'd indeed be considered an AGC, but not certain.  Seems like that'd qualify as "washout".  Was I correct?  Valid 4?  Or a carding/signing (and posting) an incorrect score get me DQ'd here?  

BamaWade

[TN94z]

The other issue that we had was right by these tarps, they are replacing some of the sod on and around the edge of the greens. It really made for a crappy lie when you got near these tarps. Of course, I could see the tarps from my approach shots, so hitting them in that spot was a mistake on our part to begin with....haha

[Rulesman]

1 hour ago, BamaWade said:

 

on looking it up on the USGA site, looks like it'd indeed be considered an AGC, but not certain.  Seems like that'd qualify as "washout".  Was I correct?  Valid 4?  Or a carding/signing (and posting) an incorrect score get me DQ'd here?  

BamaWade

It doesn't match the definition unless the area has been declared by the committee to be GUR.

[BamaWade]

15 hours ago, Rulesman said:

It doesn't match the definition unless the area has been declared by the committee to be GUR.

Ah--thanks, @Rulesman.  Sounds like an on-course misinterpretation & DQ on my part, then.

Looking at the USGA and R&A sites again last night, I couldn't find the term "washout", so I'm not sure where I pulled that from.  On course, it seemed questionable as this was a closely mown area, and decorative landscaping needles around an otherwise tall (open underneath) tree; the needles had washed in way that made a very deep and narrow channel down to the clay layer below.  Any shot was impossible.  (The grounds crew has fixed it, since)  I think in a tournament it would be a situation where a rules official could certainly be called over to give a ruling...sound like (especially from the R&A site) there is at least a sliver of a chance an interpretation could be made in the player's favor.  Otherwise, "unplayable lie" and the penalty stroke.

Stinks because I'd made a nice swing and had played what felt like a very good shot (hole was playing 196 uphill, firm greens and falling off sharply on all but back right...a tough hole for my skill level), just carried it a little too far, caught a slope on the fringe and bounced down into that spot.  Them's the breaks.

BW

[Rulesman]

On the face of it I agree that an onsite referee would probably have deemed it GUR. 

Buy I am puzzled as to why you think the USGA and R&A are different.

[BamaWade]

3 hours ago, Rulesman said:

Buy I am puzzled as to why you think the USGA and R&A are different.

I know the rules are unified, but the R&A site seems to have more verbiage (at least around the GUR/AGC rule).  I guess that's just a web site/presentation thing.  I was trying to figure out where I'd seen the term "washout" so went back to the R&A site to see if I'd seen the term there.  Nope...not sure where my brain picked that up.  FWIW, I initially went the the R&A site because I was using the USGA site, but it went through a period of ~10 minutes or so where it wouldn't load a page for me, so I jumped the virtual pond to continue my dig.  

BW