Lexi Thompson's 4 Stroke Penalty at the ANA

[Jack Watson]

9 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

If it ended at the signing of the card, then no one could be penalized for signing an incorrect scorecard. This would defeat the purpose of signing the scorecard, wouldn't it?

Nope.  

[RH31]

25 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Actually, is cheating among pro players that prevalent?

Of course it isn't. Cheating is when you knowingly break a rule. The players are human, they know mistakes are made and they don't want to scrutinized down to the millimeter by some cheeto snarfing hacker.

[weekend hacker1]

2 minutes ago, RH31 said:

NO, but it's very easy to put your ball back in play in the wrong spot.

Have you ever placed your coin to either side, not directly behind the ball, to keep it out of, or not close to, someone's line? If you have, and didn't replace your ball exactly back to the side, just a smidge forward or reward, and you broke the rule.

Anybody ever call a competitor for improper replacement of their ball?

You know somebody in your group isn't getting it right 100% of the time.

You are obligated to call it and protect the field.

There was no reason for the coin not going directly behind the ball in line with the hole. It looks bad, and it is difficult to say it was an innocent mistake when the whole process was done almost in one motion.

[Lihu]

3 minutes ago, RH31 said:

Of course it isn't. Cheating is when you knowingly break a rule. The players are human, they know mistakes are made and they don't want to scrutinized down to the millimeter by some cheeto snarfing hacker.

 

[RH31]

5 minutes ago, Lihu said:

 

Yep! That's him!!!

 

 

10 minutes ago, weekend hacker1 said:

There was no reason for the coin not going directly behind the ball in line with the hole. It looks bad, and it is difficult to say it was an innocent mistake when the whole process was done almost in one motion.

See the other coin 10-12 inches to the right of Lexi's ball?  Lexi doesn't get behind her ball to mark it because she doesn't want to get anywhere near her competitors mark or line when marking her own ball. She was trying to be courteous and she screwed up.

[DrvFrShow]

45 minutes ago, Lihu said:

 

The only downside is that the players and caddies can't step to the side to fart or something like that. . .

That's a penalty, too. Inappropriate noise.

[Hategolf]

16 minutes ago, Lihu said:

 

That is who tells the officials about an infraction....what a travesty. 

Edited April 3, 2017 by Hategolf

[Lihu]

13 minutes ago, RH31 said:

See the other coin 10-12 inches to the right of Lexi's ball?  Lexi doesn't get behind her ball to mark it because she doesn't want to get anywhere near her competitors mark or line when marking her own ball. She was trying to be courteous and she screwed up.

Yeah, I was kind of wondering about that as well. Hard to say. There's a really multiple step procedure for marking away and usually it starts with asking how the player being blocked wants it moved. . . what a pain.

 

8 minutes ago, DrvFrShow said:

That's a penalty, too. Inappropriate noise.

Bummer, didn't know that was against the rules, too. I wonder how many times that rule is broken?

 

6 minutes ago, Hategolf said:

That is who tells the officials about an infraction....what a travesty. 

We should give him a few points for skill. He doesn't even need to use his hands to eat.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Lihu
Did finish my thought. Laughing too hard.

[DrvFrShow]

1 minute ago, Lihu said:

Yeah, I was kind of wondering about that as well. Hard to say.

 

Bummer, didn't know that was against the rules, too. I wonder how many times that rule is broken?

 

We should give him a few points for skill. He doesn't even need to use his hands to eat.

Curtis Strange was penalized for farting in 1986. He ripped one when he hit a tee shot. A spectator complained to an official who assessed him a penalty for an etiquette violation. His comment was "you might as well give me another penalty because it's gonna happen again."

[Hatchman]

No, he waits till he farts to the side and the mouth closes, probably.  Then he calls in about the infraction.

[No Mulligans]

If she did this inadvertently, then why did she mark and replace the ball?  The only reason I can come up with is to move the ball.  Than would be cheating.  I feel I'm mission something here given everyone that came to her defense.

 

 

[Yukari]

17 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

If she did this inadvertently, then why did she mark and replace the ball?  The only reason I can come up with is to move the ball.  Than would be cheating.  I feel I'm mission something here given everyone that came to her defense.

 

 

You do have a good point.  Not saying if there was any intent as intent is very difficult to prove.  But it does seem very odd that:

* she marks the ball, lifts and immediately places it on the wrong place; and

* she remarks the ball, lifts and places immediately in the "correct" place (relative to the second marker placement).

[Ernest Jones]

1 hour ago, Lihu said:

 

The Jergens "hand" lotion in the background is a nice touch. Great attention to detail. Lol. 

[Golfingdad]

27 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

If she did this inadvertently, then why did she mark and replace the ball?  The only reason I can come up with is to move the ball.  Than would be cheating.  I feel I'm mission something here given everyone that came to her defense.

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, Yukari said:

You do have a good point.  Not saying if there was any intent as intent is very difficult to prove.  But it does seem very odd that:

* she marks the ball, lifts and immediately places it on the wrong place; and

* she remarks the ball, lifts and places immediately in the "correct" place (relative to the second marker placement).

I think that the reason she marks it is to realign the line on her ball for the next putt.  A lot of pros do this, and in the replay, you can see her rotating the ball in her fingers as she's replacing it.  So while many (including myself) would say, "why don't you just tap the damn thing in?", she's nowhere close to alone in the category of deliberate players in the pro ranks who do this.  The second marking in the video would fall in line with that as well, because you see that often too.  They glance at the hole or whatever and notice it's not quite aligned how they want it, so they realign again.

I could also make a case for how you could inadvertently move your ball in that situation too.  The coin is round so there is no "point" marking which part of the coin is tangent to the back of her ball, so once she shifts her eyes to the ball to find that alignment line, then she's lost the spot.  Normally, players are behind the ball so that spot is easy to find on the line to the hole, but here she's to the side.

---

Unless it's against the rules, a good solution to the problem of inadvertently replacing your ball incorrectly would be triangular or "arrow" shaped ball markers. 

[The Recreational Golfer]

I'm not going to comb through 15 pages of replies, so maybe this has already been said, but... The LPGA and the PGA need to have two rules officials watching the telecast to spot these violations. This penalty definitely needed to be called, but by tournament officials, and not by a non-involved viewer.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Hatchman said:

Then why put the Rules Officials out there.  Oh, there to help the players as some have stated.  Then the players don't even know the rules so how can they be penalized?  What some have claimed.  Goes back to the rules officials and rule enforcement.  Argue all you want.

ROs are there to assist the players. It's easy to argue against your post. The rules say the player is responsible for following the rules. Very simple.

2 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

So it's expected you call it.  But,  you were not aware you did it so how could you call it?

But by then retroactively calling it on you for two penalties they also give you another 2 penalties since you should have known?

Does this make sense to anyone?

Yes. She breached two rules. Both unknowingly, which is why the second penalty wasn't a DQ.

2 hours ago, Pete said:

This fire was started by Lexi Thomson.

Yes. She's the perpetrator.

2 hours ago, Dege said:

Iacas, this is exactly what's wrong with the golf rules as they are and as they are enforced.  If you had quoted me completely  "So we have officials out there.  It's laughable we say they are there in case the players have questions etc.  They are there to enforce the rules."  Is this the first time you've seen a definition that doesn't define what actually happens?  It is laughable.

Rules Officials aren't out there to "enforce the rules."

2 hours ago, Dege said:

In your long post, full of pointless point by points reminds me of the pompous USGA officials trying to pat themselves on the back for "protecting the game".

Whatever you say, man.

And I love how the USGA is being blamed here. The R&A and the USGA both write the rules. Lexi Thompson  is the one who breached the rules. The USGA was not involved in this, aside from having agreed with the R&A on golf's universal rules.

If you want to assign "pompous" just because I'm able to make a few points that you don't like, be my guest.

2 hours ago, Hategolf said:

Spectators = Anyone other than a player or an official.

Wow, so now caddies can't report rules violations, a spectator who sees a pro blatantly cheat can't report it and ask them to take a look at it on video or at least talk with the player to see what happened… etc.

Ha. Horrible rule suggestion.

2 hours ago, Hategolf said:

Yes, I would be ok with someone winning if there was an  infraction of sorts due to an error (hopefully unwillingly). I believe it happens already. I don't actually think all infractions are penalized in professional tournament.

I doubt very much you'd be okay with someone knowingly cheating, but just because people didn't notice for ten hours, them getting away with it and then winning the tournament when millions of people can watch them cheat. Yeah, that would be great for golf…

I was not okay with Tiger breaching the rules at the 2013 Masters and immediately led the charge to get him DQed (there was no more gracious two-stroke penalty at the time).

We can debate the rules all we want, but you can't change a published rule in that moment to suit what you think is right. You enforce what's written, and if you don't like it, look to try to change it for the future.

2 hours ago, Hategolf said:

You can choose to believe Lexi was cheating, that doesn't change the my argument.

Read what I've written. I specifically said I don't think she was cheating.

2 hours ago, Hategolf said:

I am not arguing about the TRUTH...enough already.. I get it..she cheated/ screwed up or what ever, she got what she deserved. 

Let spectators out of calling infractions..you want to call infractions? then go apply to become an official, oh right...they don't do that..they are assistants.....see the problem?

a) I am a rules official (I wasn't when I called out Tiger and helped him be penalized).
b) No, I don't see the problem.

A player violated the rules. She was penalized per the rules.

I don't care who pointed it out to the committee - the truth was obtained and acted upon properly.

2 hours ago, Hategolf said:

USGA places the responsibility on the player alone, yet they accept ANYBODY to call the infraction.

Yes, just as you can accept testimony and evidence from anywhere credible in determining the facts of the situation. In golf, in the NHL when they review a goal, in the court of law… etc.

They (the committee, the rules, the ruling bodies of golf) are ultimately concerned with getting it right. As they should be.

2 hours ago, Lefty-Golfer said:

so I have read 12 pages of comments on this forum and many more some other places...what I can conclude is golf is still run by a few elites who refuse to listen to the masses...because of their own smugness to the game.

Wow, that's deep.  Not.

2 hours ago, Lefty-Golfer said:

They could have fixed this rule 2, 5 10 years ago, they could assign officials like every other sport

And how would your local amateur event do this? Or a mini-tour event? Or a US Kids Golf event? Or a DIII college event, your local weekly league or club championship, or the millions of other times people play golf.

This rule doesn't need "fixed" - the player is responsible for knowing and following the rules.

2 hours ago, Lefty-Golfer said:

it is a sad day for golf. Not because of this rule but because of the lack of leadership and the failure of the sport to itself.

It's a sad day because Lexi unknowingly broke the rules and failed in her responsibility to follow them. It likely cost her a major championship.

2 hours ago, TN94z said:

The problem is not that other golfers aren't unwillingly doing things. The problem is that someone saw this happen and reported it, so the officials HAD to take it into consideration and once they looked at it, it was a broken rule. So if they hadn't done anything at all, and a video started circulating and people found out the officials knew and did nothing, then the integrity of the rules take a hit...to me anyway.

Yep. That would have been way, way, WAY worse.

2 hours ago, Pete said:

I think @iacas is simply trying to help you understand the rules and why they are applied the way they are. He does not blindly defend the USGA. Many times he has criticised them when it's due.

Thanks.

Lexi broke two rules and was penalized under them. I also happen to think these two rules are fine.

These rules exist not for the specific instance of moving a ball an inch to the side on the putting green (maximum gain: a single stroke), but all instances of playing from a wrong place, some of which can easily result in more than a stroke savings.

2 hours ago, ajw426 said:

I agree with Erik that this was correctly handled based upon the current rules.

Thanks, but honestly, nobody can really argue that. This is one of the other facts: the ruling was handled correctly, per the rules.

As for the ideas you proposed for LPGA/PGA Tour events, I'll pass. I could go into why, but I've done so a few times already.

1 hour ago, DrvFrShow said:

1) It is physically impossible to replace the ball in its exact previous location. That is a fact, and no one can dispute it. You are always going to be a little bit off. I don't care how good you are. If Lexi had lifted the ball, stood, wiped it with her thumb and then replaced it, no one would have noticed anything. Period.

I think someone still could have said something. You couldn't see her coin, then you could. The shadow, too, moved away from the other mark noticeably.

Also, the rules allow a tiny margin of error for replacing your ball. It's greater than a micron, and smaller than a quarter of an inch or so. Lexi was well outside that margin of error.

1 hour ago, DrvFrShow said:

2) When she replaced the ball it was about 1/10" over from where it was.

It was significantly farther than that.

1 hour ago, DrvFrShow said:

3) If they wanted to assess a 2 stroke penalty for playing from the wrong place and notify the player of that in the FOLLOWING ROUND, they should give the player the opportunity to re-sign the amended scorecard, and not a 4 stroke penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard. Why? Because in this event, the player was unaware they signed an incorrect scorecard in the first place. Still it shouldn't take until mid-way into the following round to figure out that the player incurred a 2-stroke penalty in the first place.

The player is responsible for knowing and following the rules, and writing down the correct score for their holes. Lexi failed on all of those counts.

1 hour ago, DrvFrShow said:

4) When you sit up in the stands at a game you get to see all the mistakes, all the missed calls the refs make, and the game goes on.

Comparisons to other sports is a complete non-starter.

1 hour ago, weekend hacker1 said:

The rules are there to protect the field, regardless of whether it was "intentional" or not. The TV viewer is an easy scapegoat, and it is disappointing to see other pros lining up to "diss" the rules of golf.

I agree.

Lexi is the perpetrator here.

1 hour ago, Lefty-Golfer said:

The bolded speaks for SO many people...and I mean hard core legitimate golfers who play and most importantly support the game...

And yet there are thousands and thousands of golfers who disagree completely, too.

1 hour ago, Hategolf said:

You want Golf plays to be reviewed in TV monitors? I say good idea, but let the officials handle it.

They did handle it.

1 hour ago, Hatchman said:

Agreed. But consider the baseball pitchers toe slightly off the rubber seen with the naked eye by umpires.  Not television.   Now zoom in with a camera to a player placing a ball, or contacting a hazard area under grainy magnification.  The tools of observation now are much different as well as the reporting devices.  Where do we go?

Comparing golf to other sports is a non-starter. Golf is not like other sports re: adherence to rules.

1 hour ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Unless you put cameras on every group in every tournament, the rules are not being applied equitably in Thompson's example.

Disagree. Life, and golf, isn't fair. And that's not how "equity" is used in golf.

56 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

If it ended at the signing of the card, then no one could be penalized for signing an incorrect scorecard. This would defeat the purpose of signing the scorecard, wouldn't it?

Yeah, there's that, too.

48 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

So that means that the rules are applied differently to the first three rounds of play in comparison to the last?

No.

48 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

The first three rounds are effectively under review but when the final round is complete it's over?

At some point, yes, but the first player in on Sunday still has time, too. There's only so much you can reasonably do.

48 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Why should a player be required to sign a card that's effectively under review?

It's not "under review." Effectively or otherwise.

48 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

So if this were final round and it came out you'd be okay with it because the rules say nothing in the final round is reviewable?

It'd be too late if the competition had closed. She'd probably feel really bad about it, too, and would be (rightly, IMO) shall I say "encouraged" to follow the rules in future tournaments, too…

48 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

It makes no sense this could happen in rounds 1-3 but never in round 4.

It could happen in round 4. Players sign their scorecards and then there is time - often several hours - before the competition closes.

43 minutes ago, RH31 said:

NO, but it's very easy to put your ball back in play in the wrong spot.

Not really. I don't think what she did was intentional, but it's not difficult to put your ball back in a way that satisfies the rules.

43 minutes ago, RH31 said:

Anybody ever call a competitor for improper replacement of their ball?

You know somebody in your group isn't getting it right 100% of the time.

You are obligated to call it and protect the field.

Yes, as is Lexi obligated to put it back properly herself.

28 minutes ago, RH31 said:

See the other coin 10-12 inches to the right of Lexi's ball?  Lexi doesn't get behind her ball to mark it because she doesn't want to get anywhere near her competitors mark or line when marking her own ball. She was trying to be courteous and she screwed up.

Sure… but… she screwed up. And she could have gone right behind her ball and not been anywhere near that other ball's line.

3 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

If she did this inadvertently, then why did she mark and replace the ball?  The only reason I can come up with is to move the ball.  Than would be cheating.  I feel I'm mission something here given everyone that came to her defense.

 

I think she just rotated it to get the orientation (mostly white up on top?) that she wanted.

18 minutes ago, The Recreational Golfer said:

I'm not going to comb through 15 pages of replies, so maybe this has already been said, but... The LPGA and the PGA need to have two rules officials watching the telecast to spot these violations. This penalty definitely needed to be called, but by tournament officials, and not by a non-involved viewer.

No they don't. The players are required and responsible for following the rules.

[Hazsa]

1 hour ago, No Mulligans said:

If she did this inadvertently, then why did she mark and replace the ball?  The only reason I can come up with is to move the ball.  Than would be cheating.  I feel I'm mission something here given everyone that came to her defense.

 

 

I just can't see why a professional golfer would risk a 2 stroke penalty to change a 6 inch putt into a 5 and a half inch putt. No question for me that it was a brain fart mistake.

So in my mind it wasn't cheating, but she's still broken the rules. I have no problem with the penalty if it had been spotted by playing partners/ officials/ TV officials or whatever at the time. The retrospective penalty based on someone sat at home, and the additional 2 stroke penalty, is a joke that does golf no favours. Something has to be brought in to prevent this happening again. 

 

Edited April 3, 2017 by Hazsa

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Hazsa said:

So in my mind it wasn't cheating, but she's still broken the rules. I have no problem with the penalty if it had been spotted by playing partners/ officials/ TV officials or whatever at the time. The retrospective penalty based on some sad tit sat at home, and the additional 2 stroke penalty, is a joke that does golf no favours. Something has to be brought in to prevent this happening again. 

Again with blaming the guy or gal who may be one of the most upstanding people you'd ever meet.

You have no idea who emailed. Yet everyone attributes it to a person they'll then describe in unflattering terms.