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Lexi Thompson's 4 Stroke Penalty at the ANA


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18 hours ago, iacas said:

It wasn't a millimeter.

Lexi should put her ball back in the same place. It's a pretty simple rule…

Yep. Simple rule, really, and she should be glad it's 2017 and she won't be DQed.

The rules say it's over when the tournament is over. Again, pretty simple.

They likely had to verify it, and make sure they were going to handle it properly. But I don't know. I wasn't there, involved with the LPGA. You likely weren't either…?

And… you're a fan of someone because she breached the rules, and was unaware of it, and didn't hold up her end of the deal?

No. I don't. Why? Some rounds span days, too. The rules right now are pretty clear: you cannot change things once a tournament is completed… anything up to that is fair game.

My daughter got into a playoff because they added her score up wrong last year, and we noticed before the announcement was made. She played off, won, and then won the entire tournament. Sometimes things work the other direction, too.

Golfers are responsible for knowing and following the rules. It's right there in 1-1. It's also in the earlier part of the Rules of Golf:

"Golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and to abide by the Rules. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. This is the spirit of the game of golf."

Maybe they are a fan of golf, and want the game to played under the rules set forth.

Resorting to name-calling. That'll work… :-P

The rules say it's over when the competition closes, not when "the day is over." The first and second rounds spanned multiple days, in fact. In this very same tournament.

She did get off easier. The rule was softened recently for players who were unaware that they'd breached the rules.

This has nothing to do with HD.

You can't, because the NFL isn't golf. Comparisons to other sports are pointless. They have referees, too… in golf, you're responsible for refereeing yourself.

Lexi breached the rules and then failed to referee herself. She's not the victim here. She's the perpetrator.

Yes, she should be glad she had a chance to tie it up or win it outright rather than just be DQed.

There is.

Adversity?

She breached the rules and failed to uphold her responsibility to follow them and referee herself.

She's the perpetrator, not the victim.

I don't think golf looks bad at all. Lexi does, a little, IMO, and I imagine she learned a valuable lesson today.

 

I don't think so.

And I don't really care what Tiger thinks. He too should have been DQed, but got away with it because "the committee" had supposedly already ruled. Uh huh…

I was the first to call for his DQ, and was the primary instigator of the penalty Tiger was assessed the next day."

So those who think unabashedly that I'm a Tiger fan, I always have that incident (among others) to pull out.

The honor and spirit of the game takes precedent.

 

Nothing. That's how it should be.

If someone reports something, they investigate. It may be a caddie, a fellow competitor, a spectator…

 

Why?

 

When the competition closes. Read the Rules.

 

Why? They're spectators too.

Truth: Lexi breached the rules.

You'd knowingly disregard the actual truth just because the source of that truth was watching on TV? What if the person watching on TV was watching on site in a tent, and was a fellow competitor? What if it was a spectator? A caddie? A rules official?

The rules support finding the truth with a cut-off point of close of competition.

It's pretty simple.

Really?

She's responsible for knowing (and following) the rules. She shouldn't need to be "informed of a penalty call."

 

Nah. Way worse.

Millions see someone violate the rules, but because a certain small class of people didn't see it (the fellow competitor who may be 100 yards away worried about his own ball) or doesn't want to report it (the player himself) or maybe just didn't know it happened, it basically didn't happen, and that player goes on to win?

That'd be bad.

 

Uhm, look in the Rules. Here you go… http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-34 .

 

Golf isn't other sports.

 

Ah, yes, let's blame the person who spotted the violation.

They don't name the person. Never have.

Most people don't know that I was responsible for Tiger's penalty strokes in that Masters a few years back… which is fine. He should have been DQed IMO. Maybe they just want to see the game played under the Rules of Golf, and they feel it's not their place to judge whether a player should or shouldn't be penalized, but they can simply bring facts to light.

 

You don't know when the person saw the video. The close of competition is the end.

Uhhhh… :raises hand: Tiger Woods, 2013 Masters.

And David Eger called in first, but that supposedly was just what led the "committee" to say they'd ruled already. I don't really buy it. It was my pressure that lead to the later-that-night exploration of the thing, and the early-the-next-morning call, and the four-stroke penalty.

 

Yup.

Lexi had a responsibility to follow and uphold the rules. She failed.

 
 
 

She failed to "call the violation on that hole". She failed to perform her duty.

They're not going to take "edited" video… come on.

 

Neither the USWO nor this were "screwed up." The right call was made in both cases.

 

Golf is not the same as other sports. In other sports, players are not responsible for following the rules and policing themselves first and foremost. In most other sports, you try to get away with as much as you can. Not in golf.

 

It's not, and that's part of what makes golf great.

Rules officials walking with players are there to help, not to spy on every action taken by the players, the caddies, multiple balls in play, all spectators and other outside agencies, etc.

The Rules of Golf ask that the player be responsible for their actions, and knowing and following the rules.

Lexi wasn't.

 

The Rules of Golf can help you, if you know them. Tiger knew them in that case (or knew enough to ask). Lexi didn't.

 

Golf looks fine IMO.


George cheats on his taxes. He's caught a few years later. Guess what?

He pays back what he owes, plus an additional penalty.

Unless it's outside the statute of limitations.

Same exact thing here.

What I was saying Erik is last yyear they waited until, I forget who it was hit her final approach.  Poor timing, should have made the group wait for the ruling.  And this year...the infraction happened a day ago.  That was what I meant.  True, they were legit infractions, ( I still disagree with people calling in penalties....how about they do that in the NBA, NHL and NFL...let the home audience call in penalties) but with Lexington too, adding on a 2 stroke penalty for a signing a wrong scorecard for a rule u weren't informed u broke until the next day???  Seriously?

 

So it wasn't so much the call, except the extra 2 shots...it was the gap and timing of the calls in both instances

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Just now, iacas said:

Again with blaming the guy or gal who may be one of the most upstanding people you'd ever meet.

You have no idea who emailed. Yet everyone attributes it to a person they'll then describe in unflattering terms.

I edited this just before you posted, it was an unnecessarily inflammatory remark, so apologies for the original.

i still think it's wrong for the sport to act upon the information of a TV viewer midway through a round the next day, and hope something is changed to prevent it happening in the future. 

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2 minutes ago, Typhoon92 said:

What I was saying Erik is last yyear they waited until, I forget who it was hit her final approach.

They acted in the USWO as quickly as they could. That topic still exists if you want to revive it.

2 minutes ago, Typhoon92 said:

So it wasn't so much the call, except the extra 2 shots...it was the gap and timing of the calls in both instances

She violated the rules, and someone noticed before the close of competition.

1 minute ago, Hazsa said:

i still think it's wrong for the sport to act upon the information of a TV viewer midway through a round the next day, and hope something is changed to prevent it happening in the future. 

I don't think anything will change. Nor should it.

They proposed a massive overhaul and "modernization" of the rules, and yet, this wasn't among them.

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2 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

They proposed a massive overhaul and "modernization" of the rules, and yet, this wasn't among them.

Indeed. Perhaps they're testing out the 'any publicity is good publicity' maxim.

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I would give the trophy to lexi if I was ryu because I  couldnt and wouldnt accept  a trophy I didnt win.I have no problem penalizing lexi after the infraction occurred in timely manner but doing it the next day and not even before round but after 12 holes have been played cheated everybody because they couldve played differently.Until they have cameras on everybody its not a level playing field.

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I think what was done to Lexi is a crock of shit.  She did not gain a competitive advantage and to me it is inconclusive that she improperly spotted her ball.  I wouldn't have a problem with a ruling that is made in a timely manner.  We do have one genius on here that is the rules expert.  The ruling against Tiger was made in a timely manner and did not deter from the integrity of the game.   

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2 minutes ago, Lastpick said:

I think what was done to Lexi is a crock of shit.  She did not gain a competitive advantage and to me it is inconclusive that she improperly spotted her ball.  I wouldn't have a problem with a ruling that is made in a timely manner.  We do have one genius on here that is the rules expert.  The ruling against Tiger was made in a timely manner and did not deter from the integrity of the game.   

I agree that it is a crock of shit that no one taught Lexi the rules...

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1 minute ago, Aflighter said:

I would give the trophy to lexi if I was ryu because I  couldnt and wouldnt accept  a trophy I didnt win.

She did win it, and it's a travesty that Lexi's ****-up is distracting people from recognizing that fact.

1 minute ago, Aflighter said:

I have no problem penalizing lexi after the infraction occurred in timely manner but doing it the next day and not even before round but after 12 holes have been played cheated everybody because they couldve played differently.Until they have cameras on everybody its not a level playing field.

Had they been made aware of a rules infraction and covered it up, that would have been worse for golf.

Nor are they ever going to be able to legislate a "level playing field." Too many variables. Not even remotely possible.

Just now, Lastpick said:

I think what was done to Lexi is a crock of shit. She did not gain a competitive advantage and to me it is inconclusive that she improperly spotted her ball.

Congratulations. You're the first person to say it's inconclusive.

The rules are not in place to decide what or how much of an advantage was gained in each specific instance.

3 minutes ago, Lastpick said:

The ruling against Tiger was made in a timely manner and did not deter from the integrity of the game.

The ruling against Tiger came overnight. He was called back in early the next morning.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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1 hour ago, Golfingdad said:

I think that the reason she marks it is to realign the line on her ball for the next putt.  A lot of pros do this, and in the replay, you can see her rotating the ball in her fingers as she's replacing it.  So while many (including myself) would say, "why don't you just tap the damn thing in?", she's nowhere close to alone in the category of deliberate players in the pro ranks who do this.  The second marking in the video would fall in line with that as well, because you see that often too.  They glance at the hole or whatever and notice it's not quite aligned how they want it, so they realign again.

I could also make a case for how you could inadvertently move your ball in that situation too.  The coin is round so there is no "point" marking which part of the coin is tangent to the back of her ball, so once she shifts her eyes to the ball to find that alignment line, then she's lost the spot.  Normally, players are behind the ball so that spot is easy to find on the line to the hole, but here she's to the side.

That's exactly what I thought but now I'm not so sure. I think the ball may have been in a slight depression. Maybe I've watched this clip too many times but it looks like she's on her way to tap it in when she grounds her putter but then she stops and decides to mark it. Probably seeing that the ball isn't sitting perfectly. 

When she picks up the ball she doesn't seem to do much re-aligning, she just picks it up and puts it in a different spot.

Is she a cheater? I don't know, she might have thought that she was still in the "safe zone" for the amount she adjusted the ball. Trying to give her the benefit of the doubt. I think most pros hold themselves up to a high standard and very few actively try to cheat or get away with violating the rules.

Curious what others think but I don't think she's as innocent as I originally thought she was.

Before

Screen Shot 2017-04-03 at 4.14.24 PM.png 

After

Screen Shot 2017-04-03 at 4.14.45 PM.png

Someone else posted this where they think they saw the indentation. 

Screen Shot 2017-04-03 at 4.05.36 PM.png

Having said all that I still think they need to come up with a better way to figure this stuff out than having people that aren't officials, competitors, committee members call/email about rules infractions. For whatever reason it just doesn't sit right with me. Maybe have a small team of officials watching the broadcast and if they spot something they get right on it. Or maybe the players need to be required to pass a rules test ;-)

From a marketing perspective this isn't good for their brand. The LPGA was basically left with no other option and they're unfairly being blamed for a violation Lexi made but at the same time you don't want your fans leaving with a sour taste in their mouths. Whether it's right or wrong, fans aren't happy about Lexi getting a penalty the following day during the middle of her round. The PGA/LPGA put a product out there and they need to have better control of what goes on.

At this point I'm honestly not sure what "side" I'm on lol.....Just wish Lexi had just tapped the damn putt in ;-)

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 Here is info from R&A's site.   They also apply or advise golfers infraction on the spot as I was suggesting here.  Should they be in position or wait for the phone call in?  It's always fun to bust the perp later.  If she was incorrect, remind her.

(d) On the Putting Green 

On reaching the putting green, the referee should select a position where he can observe play without interference to any spectators. 

A referee should be in a position to observe that a ball lifted is replaced in the correct place. Problems in this area are most likely to arise when a player has had to move his ball-marker a putter head length or more to one side so that it doesn’t interfere with others. The referee should take particular note of this action and ensure that the marker is put back in the right place before the ball is replaced. 

Many experienced referees have individual methods of ensuring that they observe the replacement of the marker in the correct place. For example, when observing a player moving his marker a putter head length to one side, a referee may take a coin out of his pocket or take his watch off and will not put it back until he has observed the correct replacement. In this way, the referee is unlikely to forget that the player has moved the marker away from the original spot.

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No argument from me that it wasn't handled correctly.  The rules are what they are, and pretty clear.

However, I don't like that it can be called out a day later, or two, or three (I.e. until the tournament is over).  Others may or may not share the same opinion, but to me, it ruins the flow of the tournament and flat out just makes it annoying to watch at that point.

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29 minutes ago, Lastpick said:

 She did not gain a competitive advantage and to me it is inconclusive that she improperly spotted her ball.

I thought it was clear as day after I saw the video and wondered why there was still an argument about whether she moved it. Looked like she was trying to take some break out of a tap-in. (edit: the indention thing makes more sense, but intentional or not, she moved it)

I was on the fence about TV viewers being able to call-in rules violations, indifferent about it really, but @iacas's posts have changed that.

Edited by roamin

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iacas said:

My daughter got into a playoff because they added her score up wrong last year, and we noticed before the announcement was made. She played off, won, and then won the entire tournament. Sometimes things work the other direction, too.

 

Thats cheating.  

The idea of a retroactive penalty is poppycock.  

I am not even a fan at all of Lexi or the LPGA.  But the idea that rule technicalities are more important than the spirit of the game is what's at stake here.  I think my solution is a good one.  No penalties can be levied against a player after tournament officials have accepted the card period.

This is a relatively new problem now with hd and DVr and new technology.  The rules need amendment to prevent this type of situation.

IMO they need to disallow call ins emails entirely also to further simplify matters.  If they are allowed better get em in before the governing body accepts the card.  Once card is accepted players round is complete.  Simple elegant solution!

Again for those who disagree what does signing the card after each round mean if it is under review?  

 

 

 

I mean people here on this thread have accused Lexi of being a cheater.  

Thats very sad.

I think someone should put something together with a massive protest to the LPGA.

The rules need modification because of the relatively new technology.

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IF she broke a rule in Round Three, she also teed off out of place in Round Four? NO..................WHY NOT?

 

 

There should be a "time limit" on when rules can be called. From say anytime during a round, until  the START of the NEXT round?

Also......................PGA / LPGA Tour should stop taking messages from outside the tournament about rules infractions.

I guess "score" doesn't really matter does it? I mean anyone can call a penalty, and adjust your score? Sad!

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At the time the card was turned in the score was correct.  How can they add stroke penalties because of a retroactive penalty application?

it makes no sense and the best golfer was not identified everything went horribly wrong.

the spirit and integrity of the competition was destroyed and that's why everyone's pissed.

Edited by Jack Watson
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44 minutes ago, 14ledo81 said:

I agree that it is a crock of shit that no one taught Lexi the rules...

Yeah, she was probably busy learning to "play better" golf rather than learning how to make sure the ball gets place exactly in the same spot...what crock of shit. Pleeeeease. 

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11 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

At the time the card was turned in the score was correct.  How can they add stroke penalties because of a retroactive penalty application?

Yea, it's pretty ridiculous that it works out that way.  Obviously if a player doesn't know about a penalty before signing, it's adding insult to injury at that point

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18 minutes ago, Hategolf said:

Yeah, she was probably busy learning to "play better" golf rather than learning how to make sure the ball gets place exactly in the same spot...what crock of shit. Pleeeeease. 

I was just agreeing with the other guy....;)

 

But......

Isn't part of playing better golf knowing the rules?  After all, they can also work in your favor.

 

Edited by 14ledo81

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