Lexi Thompson's 4 Stroke Penalty at the ANA

[phillyk]

The rules are there for a reason.  And seriously, she knew that she was placing the ball in a different spot.  It doesn't matter why she did it, but she very well knew what she was doing.  Maybe she didn't think moving it in the manner she did would get her a penalty, still doesn't matter though.  She did it and she knows it.  

Every one is blasting the 2 stroke for signing an incorrect scorecard rule.  Well it could go back to getting DQ'd if you'd like.  I think it's nice to allow them to still be in competition after signing the incorrect card.

Obviously, it's a little unfair, I suppose, that only the leaders would really get called out because of being on tv the most, but then again everyone must abide by the rules.  Play by the rules and you won't get called out.

The fact that after being given the penalty, she could come back and get into a playoff shows how strong of a golfer Lexi is.  I think this tournament will only go to make her even stronger than before.

Edited April 3, 2017 by phillyk

[jkelley9]

@iacas I do get what your saying. You're making it clearer than anyone here. But personally, this just feels sad for a high level competition and for the game of golf. I do think you're right (although I'm sure you know you're right); Lexi did wrong. But I believe she outperformed the field and yet, she did not win. 4 strokes. Yowza. Playing by the rules is a must, she did not. It cost her deeply.

But for the viewers and the fans, this leaves a bad taste for the game of golf. People aren't going to be drawn to or stay with the game of golf seeing junk like this happen in a Major championship, despite being "correct."

[Yukari]

13 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

 

That's the one I was looking for.  Thanks!

It's amazing how some people were so outraged for Chella Choi's mistake and people seem to have a completely different view on this case. In both cases, it seems like they both picked it up and replaced it - without delay - to a different spot.  Almost identical infractions.

People who were outraged with Chella Choi's infraction of the rule and not with Lexi's infraction of the rule really need some inner reflection.

I don't see how 4-stroke penalty was "bad".  It seems the rule was properly enforced as was in Chella Choi's case.

[krupa]

Objectively, she deserved the penalties.

Subjectively, they shouldn't be taking rules officiating from viewers.   Put an official with each group and give them the final say.  If they make a mistake (and they will) so be it; the official and player can talk about it with Jim Joyce and Armando Galarraga (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armando_Galarraga's_near-perfect_game), respectively and the viewers can go online and complain about it.

[Dave Saari]

I agree that Lexi violated the rules as they are currently written, and losing the tournament as a result was a bitter disappointment. For anyone to claim she did it on purpose is a real stretch in my mind.

What no one has mentioned here is that it is physically impossible to replace a marked ball "exactly" where it was. No one in the history of golf has ever done it. Even if the most advanced laser measurement technology were used, it would not be possible for a human being to place the ball in "exactly" the same position. In general, the pros get the ball within a few millimeters of the correct spot -- Lexi was off by maybe half an inch. She was clearly trying not to disturb the area around the other ball marked near her own and so approached from the side. I personally don't think she did it intentionally, but was it careless or simply inadvertent? Under the current rules it doesn't matter. As someone above pointed out, the new rules will fix this. The minor discrepancy in placement made absolutely no difference to the outcome of the subsequent putt, yet the four-stroke penalty obviously cost her the tournament. This is one reason why the rules need updating.

I used to be a rules purist, but things like this, where common sense plays no part in assessing penalties, have changed my mind.

[krupa]

2 minutes ago, Dave Saari said:

What no one has mentioned here is that it is physically impossible to replace a marked ball "exactly" where it was.  Even if the most advanced laser measurement technology were used, it would not be possible for a human being to place the ball in "exactly" the same position.

This is ridiculous.  No one is holding her to a millimeter or two, we're talking about a clear, observable difference in location.  She moved her ball and whether it helped her or not is irrelevant. Taking "benefit gained" or intent into the decision making process for giving penalty strokes is a train wreck waiting to happen.  

 

[brettfan]

My only issue is that she never signed an incorrect scorecard.  Her scorecard, when signed, was correct. I have no problem with the initial 2 shot penalty but she never signed an incorrect scorecard.  If the score can be amended 12 hours later then the scorecard can too.

 

Edited for typo.

Edited April 3, 2017 by brettfan

[Lihu]

28 minutes ago, jkelley9 said:

@iacas I do get what your saying. You're making it clearer than anyone here. But personally, this just feels sad for a high level competition and for the game of golf. I do think you're right (although I'm sure you know you're right); Lexi did wrong. But I believe she outperformed the field and yet, she did not win. 4 strokes. Yowza. Playing by the rules is a must, she did not. It cost her deeply.

But for the viewers and the fans, this leaves a bad taste for the game of golf. People aren't going to be drawn to or stay with the game of golf seeing junk like this happen in a Major championship, despite being "correct."

Not sure how it leaves a worse taste than having rules broken and not doing anything about it because a particular golfer is more popular than others?

 

4 minutes ago, Dave Saari said:

I agree that Lexi violated the rules as they are currently written, and losing the tournament as a result was a bitter disappointment. For anyone to claim she did it on purpose is a real stretch in my mind.

She did it on purpose, but very likely without malice or intent to improve her lie.

 

4 minutes ago, Dave Saari said:

What no one has mentioned here is that it is physically impossible to replace a marked ball "exactly" where it was. No one in the history of golf has ever done it. Even if the most advanced laser measurement technology were used, it would not be possible for a human being to place the ball in "exactly" the same position. In general, the pros get the ball within a few millimeters of the correct spot -- Lexi was off by maybe half an inch. She was clearly trying not to disturb the area around the other ball marked near her own and so approached from the side. I personally don't think she did it intentionally, but was it careless or simply inadvertent? Under the current rules it doesn't matter. As someone above pointed out, the new rules will fix this. The minor discrepancy in placement made absolutely no difference to the outcome of the subsequent putt, yet the four-stroke penalty obviously cost her the tournament. This is one reason why the rules need updating.

I used to be a rules purist, but things like this, where common sense plays no part in assessing penalties, have changed my mind.

It was enough that a camera with something like 4K or 8K could catch it, so very likely detectable by the the person doing it.

[David in FL]

1 hour ago, Houselr69 said:

Golf took another hit against its growth this weekend. 

Let's keep things in perspective. I highly doubt that this caused anyone to decide not to start the game, or if they're already a golfer, to quit....

[Lihu]

1 minute ago, brettfan said:

My only issue is that she never signed an incorrect scorecard.  Her scorecard, when signed, was correct. I have no problem with the initial 2 shot penalty but she never signed an incorrect scorecard.  If the score can be amended 12 hours later than the scorecard can too.

That sounds like something reasonable and could likely be a rule change candidate?

[Jakester23]

5 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Let's keep things in perspective. I highly doubt that this caused anyone to decide not to start the game, or if they're already a golfer, to quit....

I agree but it could affect how many people watch the LPGA going forward.

[Bballref]

My take is that there's no mistaking Lexi violated the rules and suffered the consequences. Not the easiest game to police. Just imagine if she was playing with a recent pimply faced teenaged graduate from the Symmetra tour who noticed Lexi's rule violation. Do you really think the new kid would say something to her about it? Don't think so. 

I know the pros all have their routines but lifting and marking a ball for a 1 foot putt, really need to? Maybe if it was a first putt on a soft green but this is a layup (sorry about basketball reference).

[Yukari]

7 hours ago, Shorty said:

Hi guys  I like Lexi and I'm not a fan of phone-in violations, but this was cheating, pure and simple. I'm not really sure why there is a need to try to protect her from the consequences of her actions because she is popular. She moved the ball to avoid a spike mark or something. In my opinion it was clearly a deliberate act. The result sucks, but - if you don't cheat, you don't get penalised for cheating, even though The word "cheating" has been sugar coated as "not placing the ball in its original position" or whatever. You mark the ball at 6 o'clock if the hole is at 12 o'clock. Why would you replace it at 8 or 9 o'clock? Oh - if you're cheating, that's when.

Great to see you back, Shorty!!!  I like your no-nonsense style.  And I am glad to see it hasn't changed.

[David in FL]

2 minutes ago, Jakester23 said:

I agree but it could affect how many people watch the LPGA going forward.

If anything, it might drive a temporary increase in viewership.

Any publicity is good publicity...  

[Lihu]

Did anyone notice that the ball was in some kind of a "indentation" in the original position? Or is this an optical illusion?

 

Actually, I noticed that her hand is in the way of her view the entire time. Probably not the reason she moved the ball even if there is one. . .IDK many people who would miss a 15" putt.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Lihu
watched the video a couple more times in HD

[iacas]

41 minutes ago, cipher said:

A slippery slope rebuttal...seriously?  I can't take this seriously at this point.  Same day, that is all. 

I made several points. If you want to boil it down to one (which, yep, was a slippery slope style point), feel free, but it comes up far short of representing the totality of what I said.

The rules exist for reasons that you're seemingly not weighing. They had to draw a line in the sand, and they drew it at "when the competition closes." Sometimes rounds span multiple days. Should a penalty committed on the third hole Thursday be unable to be reviewed Friday while players finish that same hole?

The line in the sand is close of competition. You're simply arguing for a different line in the sand because a professional golfer failed in her obligation and responsibility to follow the rules, and you're simply arguing that the line in the sand be moved to some other position.

The current line in the sand represents an end point in which almost all things are frozen. There are no more scores to be made, no more putts to be holed, etc. It's the logical place to put such a line, while still allowing for the competition to be most true.

And those who want to complain about fairness… making it the "end of the day" would introduce more unfairness as a player who plays in the morning would have longer to wait and possibly be "caught" than a player who plays in the afternoon (on Thursday and Friday in particular, when pairings are somewhat random and not based on the scoring in the current tournament).

33 minutes ago, phillyk said:

The rules are there for a reason.  And seriously, she knew that she was placing the ball in a different spot.  It doesn't matter why she did it, but she very well knew what she was doing.  Maybe she didn't think moving it in the manner she did would get her a penalty, still doesn't matter though.  She did it and she knows it.

Yeah, almost nobody's blaming the actual perpetrator of the rules violation.

30 minutes ago, jkelley9 said:

@iacas I do get what your saying. You're making it clearer than anyone here. But personally, this just feels sad for a high level competition and for the game of golf.

It is sad. It's a bad day for golf.

But Lexi is the cause. She's not the victim.

30 minutes ago, jkelley9 said:

But for the viewers and the fans, this leaves a bad taste for the game of golf. People aren't going to be drawn to or stay with the game of golf seeing junk like this happen in a Major championship, despite being "correct."

Lexi is the cause of that.

The LPGA and the committee had to act. It would have been WAY worse had they tried to cover up a rules violation.

21 minutes ago, Yukari said:

It's amazing how some people were so outraged for Chella Choi's mistake and people seem to have a completely different view on this case. In both cases, it seems like they both picked it up and replaced it - without delay - to a different spot.  Almost identical infractions.

People who were outraged with Chella Choi's infraction of the rule and not with Lexi's infraction of the rule really need some inner reflection.

I don't see how 4-stroke penalty was "bad".  It seems the rule was properly enforced as was in Chella Choi's case.

Yup.

7 minutes ago, krupa said:

Subjectively, they shouldn't be taking rules officiating from viewers.   Put an official with each group and give them the final say.

They'd still miss things, and the responsibility to follow the rules lies with the player.

5 minutes ago, Dave Saari said:

What no one has mentioned here is that it is physically impossible to replace a marked ball "exactly" where it was.

Because this was well outside of the very small range of what's acceptable. We don't need to discuss things on a microscopic level.

5 minutes ago, Dave Saari said:

As someone above pointed out, the new rules will fix this.

They do not address playing from a wrong place in cases like this, where the ball is marked and the player does not do her best to properly return the ball to the spot.

The new rules are for estimating where a ball crossed the margin of a hazard, even if video evidence later suggests otherwise… (for example). It's got nothing to do with moving your ball an inch to the side when marking it and replacing it a second later.

5 minutes ago, Dave Saari said:

The minor discrepancy in placement made absolutely no difference to the outcome of the subsequent putt

I'm not going to get off track here… but you don't know that. Just as nobody really knew re: Chella Choi.

15 minutes ago, krupa said:

This is ridiculous.  No one is holding her to a millimeter or two, we're talking about a clear, observable difference in location.  She moved her ball and whether it helped her or not is irrelevant. Taking "benefit gained" or intent into the decision making process for giving penalty strokes is a train wreck waiting to happen.  

Precisely.

13 minutes ago, brettfan said:

My only issue is that she never signed an incorrect scorecard.  Her scorecard, when signed, was correct. I have no problem with the initial 2 shot penalty but she never signed an incorrect scorecard.  If the score can be amended 12 hours later then the scorecard can too.

It was an incorrect scorecard when she signed it.

She incurred the penalty when she misplaced and played the ball. She didn't include the penalty on the scorecard.

She signed an incorrect scorecard.

You're confusing when the penalty was assessed (because she failed to assess it herself) with when she actually incurred the penalty.

The scorecard cannot be amended by the player after they've signed it.

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

You're all stretching the bounds of logic in order to try to come up with some way to explain away someone breaching the rules. How about this simple solution: follow the rules of the game, or suffer the consequences?

Yeah, no kidding Erik. But in that case then each golfer needs to be reviewed by HD camera for EVERY stroke made since penalties can be incurred even when there was no intention. Ever seen a game of football without flags? A soccer match without whistles? Basketball without fouls? Come on, who's stretching the bounds of logic here? Allowing a tv viewer to call in a day later and have a player penalized is asinine at best. 

[boogielicious]

52 minutes ago, phillyk said:

The rules are there for a reason.  And seriously, she knew that she was placing the ball in a different spot.  It doesn't matter why she did it, but she very well knew what she was doing.  Maybe she didn't think moving it in the manner she did would get her a penalty, still doesn't matter though.  She did it and she knows it.  

Every one is blasting the 2 stroke for signing an incorrect scorecard rule.  Well it could go back to getting DQ'd if you'd like.  I think it's nice to allow them to still be in competition after signing the incorrect card.

Obviously, it's a little unfair, I suppose, that only the leaders would really get called out because of being on tv the most, but then again everyone must abide by the rules.  Play by the rules and you won't get called out.

The fact that after being given the penalty, she could come back and get into a playoff shows how strong of a golfer Lexi is.  I think this tournament will only go to make her even stronger than before.

While I agree that she knows the rules and should know better, I don't think you can read intent into that video. I saw it as more carelessness. She approached from the side instead of straight back. Intent is very hard to prove. I didn't see anything in front of the ball that was obvious, like a spike mark.