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dennyjones

Lexi Thompson's 4 Stroke Penalty at the ANA

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If the pre-2016 penalties were in effect today, would the LPGA been so eager to disqualify the leader on the course by a wide margin in the middle of her final round, who also happens to be the most popular player on the circuit, because she mis-marked her ball by a millimeter over 24 hours prior?

What happened to Lexi today was a disgrace. That's all there needs to be said.

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Official scorers accepted the score on the card.

How do we ever know the ball is replaced on the green in EXACTLY the right place?

IMO if this crap stands they should eliminate the use of ball markers

 

 

Edited by Jack Watson

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47 minutes ago, Chilli Dipper said:

If the pre-2016 penalties were in effect today, would the LPGA been so eager to disqualify the leader on the course by a wide margin in the middle of her final round, who also happens to be the most popular player on the circuit, because she mis-marked her ball by a millimeter over 24 hours prior?

It wasn't a millimeter.

47 minutes ago, Chilli Dipper said:

What happened to Lexi today was a disgrace. That's all there needs to be said.

Lexi should put her ball back in the same place. It's a pretty simple rule…

4 hours ago, dennyjones said:

I'm watching the ANA ladies tournament and they are assessing Lexi Thompson a 4 stroke penalty from yesterday's round based upon a viewer's phone call.  It seems she marked her ball and when it was replaced it wasn't in the same area.    She then signed an incorrect round that is another 2 stroke penalty.  

Yep. Simple rule, really, and she should be glad it's 2017 and she won't be DQed.

4 hours ago, Aflighter said:

Same ole viewer bs affecting the game. Pretty sad when even the other players say its bs. Once  round is over it should be over.

The rules say it's over when the tournament is over. Again, pretty simple.

4 hours ago, kpaulhus said:

I think it was poor form on the LPGA that they found out on the 7th hole, then didn't tell Lexi until after the 12th. It doesnt take a damn hour and a half to make that call. Take away 4 shots from the leader, IN A MAJOR, with 6 holes left. Embarrassing. If she comes back to win it would be phenomenal. I'm now a huge Lexi fan. 

They likely had to verify it, and make sure they were going to handle it properly. But I don't know. I wasn't there, involved with the LPGA. You likely weren't either…?

And… you're a fan of someone because she breached the rules, and was unaware of it, and didn't hold up her end of the deal?

4 hours ago, wolfpackguy said:

Never mind just the round being over...can we all agree that at least when the day is over it should be over?

No. I don't. Why? Some rounds span days, too. The rules right now are pretty clear: you cannot change things once a tournament is completed… anything up to that is fair game.

My daughter got into a playoff because they added her score up wrong last year, and we noticed before the announcement was made. She played off, won, and then won the entire tournament. Sometimes things work the other direction, too.

4 hours ago, wolfpackguy said:

If it's that important and you are going to call it that tight put a rules official on each golfer and call it when it happens.

Golfers are responsible for knowing and following the rules. It's right there in 1-1. It's also in the earlier part of the Rules of Golf:

"Golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and to abide by the Rules. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. This is the spirit of the game of golf."

4 hours ago, 26point2 said:

Kinda crap.  Wonder what player this person is a fan of. 

Maybe they are a fan of golf, and want the game to played under the rules set forth.

3 hours ago, Gunther said:

Fkn stupid.  You RoG Nazis should be proud. 

Resorting to name-calling. That'll work… :-P

3 hours ago, Fritz said:

That was exactly what I was thinking. I'll bet dollars to donuts, if Lexi was behind it wouldn't have been brought up. A day late? I think that is totally wrong. I think once the day is over, that's the end of it.

The rules say it's over when the competition closes, not when "the day is over." The first and second rounds spanned multiple days, in fact. In this very same tournament.

3 hours ago, Yukari said:

I just saw the video.  Wasn't there a similar controversy for a foreign player where many people thought she purposely moved it to a side to - perhaps avoid a spike mark? I thought she was DQ'd for that (I may be wrong).

If the other player was indeed DQ'd (I'll have to search the internet), then Lexi got off a lot easier IMHO.  Not commenting on whether the rule is fair or not, just saying.

She did get off easier. The rule was softened recently for players who were unaware that they'd breached the rules.

3 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

I think golf really needs to do something about HD rules!

This has nothing to do with HD.

3 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

I can't call the NFL to complain about an uncalled penalty, or a penalty that was called and shouldn't have been. Not at the time let alone a day later! If it's not called at the time, it's over!

You can't, because the NFL isn't golf. Comparisons to other sports are pointless. They have referees, too… in golf, you're responsible for refereeing yourself.

Lexi breached the rules and then failed to referee herself. She's not the victim here. She's the perpetrator.

3 hours ago, 26point2 said:

The rule changed in 2016, it's only a two stroke penalty on top of the two strokes for replacing the ball in the wrong spot.  If this were 2015 she would have been DQ'ed.

Yes, she should be glad she had a chance to tie it up or win it outright rather than just be DQed.

3 hours ago, Braivo said:

There needs to be statute on replays.

There is.

2 hours ago, Braivo said:

I hope she pulls this off. What a comeback from adversity. 

Adversity?

She breached the rules and failed to uphold her responsibility to follow them and referee herself.

She's the perpetrator, not the victim.

2 hours ago, Braivo said:

A four shot penalty for moving a ball one inch, costing a woman a major championship ... golf, you don't look good right now, not good at all. 

I don't think golf looks bad at all. Lexi does, a little, IMO, and I imagine she learned a valuable lesson today.

1 hour ago, Braivo said:

This might serve to speed up the simplification of the rules. Even the big names in golf are not leaving this alone. Twitter is on fire tonight. 

I don't think so.

And I don't really care what Tiger thinks. He too should have been DQed, but got away with it because "the committee" had supposedly already ruled. Uh huh…

I was the first to call for his DQ, and was the primary instigator of the penalty Tiger was assessed the next day."

So those who think unabashedly that I'm a Tiger fan, I always have that incident (among others) to pull out.

The honor and spirit of the game takes precedent.

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

If they choose to enforce rulings in this manner what's to stop players from reviewing other players rounds after the fact and finding infractions?

Nothing. That's how it should be.

If someone reports something, they investigate. It may be a caddie, a fellow competitor, a spectator…

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

IF they are going to pull this crap they need close up had camera on every players every move of every tournament!

Why?

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

Where is the line drawn?

When the competition closes. Read the Rules.

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

I am not saying I do not respect the rules as I understand them which is not well,  but if your officiating of your sport includes tv viewers then you have a HUGE problem

Why? They're spectators too.

Truth: Lexi breached the rules.

You'd knowingly disregard the actual truth just because the source of that truth was watching on TV? What if the person watching on TV was watching on site in a tent, and was a fellow competitor? What if it was a spectator? A caddie? A rules official?

The rules support finding the truth with a cut-off point of close of competition.

It's pretty simple.

2 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Let's just have a poll online to decide a major what's the difference?

Really?

2 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Two of the shots were assessed due to signing a wrong card when the player had not been informed of a penalty call?

She's responsible for knowing (and following) the rules. She shouldn't need to be "informed of a penalty call."

1 hour ago, MrGolfguy67 said:

Simple solution: Do away with the stupid policy that allows TV viewers to call or email in potential rules violations.

Nah. Way worse.

Millions see someone violate the rules, but because a certain small class of people didn't see it (the fellow competitor who may be 100 yards away worried about his own ball) or doesn't want to report it (the player himself) or maybe just didn't know it happened, it basically didn't happen, and that player goes on to win?

That'd be bad.

1 hour ago, wolfpackguy said:

Can we now go back and look at past Majors in HD and maybe take away a couple from Jack and/or Tiger? Where is the limit?

Uhm, look in the Rules. Here you go… http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-34 .

42 minutes ago, wolfpackguy said:

No one who was even remotely in charge of making rules decisions in other sports wouldn't even be answering the phones at all. 

Golf isn't other sports.

40 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

I'd like to know what viewers who call rules officials and report a possible violation are thinking.  Are they doing it for attention?  Does it make them feel important?

Ah, yes, let's blame the person who spotted the violation.

They don't name the person. Never have.

Most people don't know that I was responsible for Tiger's penalty strokes in that Masters a few years back… which is fine. He should have been DQed IMO. Maybe they just want to see the game played under the Rules of Golf, and they feel it's not their place to judge whether a player should or shouldn't be penalized, but they can simply bring facts to light.

40 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

What makes them think it's their responsibility to report an infraction and change the results?  It's bad enough to call in the first place, but to call the next day?

You don't know when the person saw the video. The close of competition is the end.

40 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

If there is anyone here who has called tournament officials to report a rules violation, I would be interested in hearing what their reasoning is for doing so.

Uhhhh… :raises hand: Tiger Woods, 2013 Masters.

And David Eger called in first, but that supposedly was just what led the "committee" to say they'd ruled already. I don't really buy it. It was my pressure that lead to the later-that-night exploration of the thing, and the early-the-next-morning call, and the four-stroke penalty.

27 minutes ago, JetFan1983 said:

Trigger warning: Thems the rules. Don't kill me for saying it. But she didn't replace her ball correctly. Therefore 2 strokes, plus signing for an incorrect card, two more strokes. Fair. To quote Shooter McGavin, "this is golf." 

Yup.

Lexi had a responsibility to follow and uphold the rules. She failed.

 
 
14 minutes ago, chilepepper said:

What a cluster truck. Call the violation on that hole and move on or do nothing. Pretty soon viewers will call in and back it up with edited/shopped video " evidence". This is a real slippery slope for the powers that be are treading

She failed to "call the violation on that hole". She failed to perform her duty.

They're not going to take "edited" video… come on.

13 minutes ago, Typhoon92 said:

I'm done with the LPGA .  Boneheads screwed up a major last year and even WORSE this year...the infraction was from the day before...I'm done. 

Neither the USWO nor this were "screwed up." The right call was made in both cases.

12 minutes ago, 70sSanO said:

I cannot think of another sport that assesses a penalty after the officials/referees/umpires/lines person/etc. missed a call.

Golf is not the same as other sports. In other sports, players are not responsible for following the rules and policing themselves first and foremost. In most other sports, you try to get away with as much as you can. Not in golf.

12 minutes ago, 70sSanO said:

I realize the rules, but the officials missed it, it should be on them.

It's not, and that's part of what makes golf great.

Rules officials walking with players are there to help, not to spy on every action taken by the players, the caddies, multiple balls in play, all spectators and other outside agencies, etc.

The Rules of Golf ask that the player be responsible for their actions, and knowing and following the rules.

Lexi wasn't.

7 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

It's golf.  It's perfectly legal to have a team of people move a loose impediment for you.  It's golf thems the rules...idiotic

 

The Rules of Golf can help you, if you know them. Tiger knew them in that case (or knew enough to ask). Lexi didn't.

4 minutes ago, wolfpackguy said:

A four shot penalty for moving a ball one inch, costing a woman a major championship ... golf, you don't look good right now, not good at all. 

Golf looks fine IMO.


George cheats on his taxes. He's caught a few years later. Guess what?

He pays back what he owes, plus an additional penalty.

Unless it's outside the statute of limitations.

Same exact thing here.

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At least Erik is consistent in his assessment of the situation with all golfers. . .

There was another thread where this type of thing happened to another golfer (who was not Lexi) and the response from the same crowd was just short of calling her a criminal. :-D

Another thread had a caller call in a tiny oscillation of the ball to Tiger in the rough and it seemed like most of the responses were against him as well? :whistle:

Strange world, but good thing the RoG apply equally to everyone. :banana:

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4 hours ago, wolfpackguy said:

Never mind just the round being over...can we all agree that at least when the day is over it should be over?  If it's that important and you are going to call it that tight put a rules official on each golfer and call it when it happens.  And if you are going to use instant replay review, do it on all shots for every golfer and use it instantly...it's kind of in the name.

Can we agree there is a difference between officials and fans at home? It seems to be self admitted incompetence by LPGA if it's an interactively judged event like American Idol or something.

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This moreso brings me back to my main gripe about tv golf......every shot is not being seen like this during a tourney and I hate thus knowing a whole does not have uniform analysis.

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3 hours ago, JetFan1983 said:

Trigger warning: Thems the rules. Don't kill me for saying it. But she didn't replace her ball correctly. Therefore 2 strokes, plus signing for an incorrect card, two more strokes. Fair. To quote Shooter McGavin, "this is golf." 

You're right. Lexi screwed up and she had to deal with the consequences.

3 hours ago, JetFan1983 said:

OK, now that I got that ^^^ awful paragraph out of the way, how brutal for Lexi to lose a major this way! They assessed the penalty soooooo late. Ugh. So gutted as a fan of hers. Like everyone else I'm pretty bitter about this. They're going to have to take a serious look I think at whether penalties should be assessed this late in the game. Maybe once the next round starts, that's the cut off for assessing penalties from previous rounds.

I think they'll look into it but at the end of the day I don't know what else can be done. You could have a cut off for penalties when the next rounds starts but the tournament is still ongoing. The player's score is based on 72 holes of golf, you can't have a player be "safe" from a violation they made during one or more of those 72 holes. They did modify the rule so that it's a penalty for signing an incorrect score instead of a DQ. 

People are going to say they shouldn't allow call ins/emails from viewers but it's not like other sports where you have referees watching everything. I do acknowledge it does seem odd that you can have a spectator impact the final result of a tournament. I can see both sides of the argument. I think it's good fans have a voice but on the other hand I don't think it's good for the "brand" of golf to keep getting these mid-round surprise score revisions, especially in majors.

With the delay, it's better that they get it right than rush and get it wrong. They also don't have the option of stopping play or something like that.

Basically the whole thing sucks. I watched the replay and couldn't even tell she replaced the ball incorrectly. She made a mistake and obviously wasn't trying to cheat or get away with something. Maybe players should be able to throw a "common sense" flag. If you have to zoom in, play it in slow-mo to see the violation and the player didn't gain an advantage, we could just call it no harm no foul.

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I'm confused about the additional 2 strokes for signing an incorrect card. At the time, the card was correct because she hadn't yet been assessed a penalty. Does that imply that she knowingly and intentionally moved the ball?

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18 minutes ago, zero said:

I'm confused about the additional 2 strokes for signing an incorrect card. At the time, the card was correct because she hadn't yet been assessed a penalty. Does that imply that she knowingly and intentionally moved the ball?

No, she wasn't aware she placed the ball in the wrong spot. You can be penalized for unintentional violations. Because she replaced the ball incorrectly the score she signed for yesterday wasn't correct.

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There is a bit of a disconnect that you need to sign your card after each 18 hole round, but they can assess penalties over the entire 72 hole tournament.  Why not change the rules to let the golfer officially sign for all four 18 hole rounds at the end of the 72 hole tournament?

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6 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

 

Hi guys :-) I like Lexi and I'm not a fan of phone-in violations, but this was cheating, pure and simple. I'm not really sure why there is a need to try to protect her from the consequences of her actions because she is popular. She moved the ball to avoid a spike mark or something. In my opinion it was clearly a deliberate act. The result sucks, but - if you don't cheat, you don't get penalised for cheating, even though The word "cheating" has been sugar coated as "not placing the ball in its original position" or whatever. You mark the ball at 6 o'clock if the hole is at 12 o'clock. Why would you replace it at 8 or 9 o'clock? Oh - if you're cheating, that's when.

Edited by Shorty

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18 minutes ago, SG11118 said:

There is a bit of a disconnect that you need to sign your card after each 18 hole round, but they can assess penalties over the entire 72 hole tournament.  Why not change the rules to let the golfer officially sign for all four 18 hole rounds at the end of the 72 hole tournament?

Maybe you tentatively sign at the end of each 18 hole round, but that signature doesn't become "official" until the golfer has also signed for the tournament score?

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1 hour ago, Shorty said:

Hi guys :-) I like Lexi and I'm not a fan of phone-in violations, but this was cheating, pure and simple. I'm not really sure why there is a need to try to protect her from the consequences of her actions because she is popular. She moved the ball to avoid a spike mark or something. In my opinion it was clearly a deliberate act. The result sucks, but - if you don't cheat, you don't get penalised for cheating, even though The word "cheating" has been sugar coated as "not placing the ball in its original position" or whatever. You mark the ball at 6 o'clock if the hole is at 12 o'clock. Why would you replace it at 8 or 9 o'clock? Oh - if you're cheating, that's when.

I agree. The video evidence very much looks like she moved it intentionally. It was done in one motion much like Chella Choi so it's not like she left the marker there for a while and forgot she had marked it to the side. My guess she saw a spike mark or similar and was trying to avoid it. Hopefully the 2019 rules will mean this won't happen from then on. But for now, the way it happened sucks, but I cannot defend that as being an accident.

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Caught the playoff hole and subsequent interviews and talking heads. Wow, brutal. Definitely sucks for Lexi, but they could have shown a little more class and respect for the winner. They flat out called her "undeserving" of the win. Classless. 

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4 hours ago, iacas said:

 

 

Golf is not the same as other sports. In other sports, players are not responsible for following the rules and policing themselves first and foremost. 

 

 


George cheats on his taxes. He's caught a few years later. Guess what?

He pays back what he owes, plus an additional penalty.

Unless it's outside the statute of limitations.

Same exact thing here.

If golfers are supposed to uphold the rules and referee themselves, then why are spectators getting involved?  "Lexi had a responsibility to follow and uphold the rules. She failed."  So the responsibility then falls on t.v. viewers?   There were many other balls marked and replaced on the green that weren't shown on t.v., so aren't some players under more scrutiny than others?  I have a feeling guys like Gonzalo Fernandez-Castano or Thorbjørn Olesen didn't get as much air time as Tiger did at the 2013 Masters.

George cheating on his taxes is not the same thing.  Cheating is not the same as breaking a rule.  Now if George inadvertently made a mistake on his taxes, and his neighbor saw a video of George making the error and called the IRS, that would be closer to what happened at the golf tournament.  :-D

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2 hours ago, Shorty said:

Hi guys :-) I like Lexi and I'm not a fan of phone-in violations, but this was cheating, pure and simple. I'm not really sure why there is a need to try to protect her from the consequences of her actions because she is popular. She moved the ball to avoid a spike mark or something. In my opinion it was clearly a deliberate act. The result sucks, but - if you don't cheat, you don't get penalised for cheating, even though The word "cheating" has been sugar coated as "not placing the ball in its original position" or whatever. You mark the ball at 6 o'clock if the hole is at 12 o'clock. Why would you replace it at 8 or 9 o'clock? Oh - if you're cheating, that's when.

Welcome back, @Shorty!

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6 hours ago, iacas said:

Players (Paula Creamer, for example) have DQed themselves in the past when they realized they breached a rule… even after the tournament was finalized.

Pretty simple and straightforward.

You can DQ yourself after the tournament is over?

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2 hours ago, Shorty said:

Hi guys :-) I like Lexi and I'm not a fan of phone-in violations, but this was cheating, pure and simple. I'm not really sure why there is a need to try to protect her from the consequences of her actions because she is popular. She moved the ball to avoid a spike mark or something. In my opinion it was clearly a deliberate act. The result sucks, but - if you don't cheat, you don't get penalised for cheating, even though The word "cheating" has been sugar coated as "not placing the ball in its original position" or whatever. You mark the ball at 6 o'clock if the hole is at 12 o'clock. Why would you replace it at 8 or 9 o'clock? Oh - if you're cheating, that's when.

I'm not saying she didn't violate a rule, but do you really think she cheated?  I'll be honest...I'm looking at the green, and I don't see any spike marks between her ball and the hole:

58e22460aa6cc_Screenshot2017-04-03at5_22_07AM.png.f919f8971eba1d092e23c9e9a2492ec5.png

She was leading the tournament and knew all eyes and cameras would be on her.  Who would risk doing something intentional? 

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