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dennyjones

Lexi Thompson's 4 Stroke Penalty at the ANA

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15 minutes ago, DrvFrShow said:

But if you read the rule book... except when you don't. See all those decisions....

You don't need the decisions to understand this, from Rule 20-3a:

Quote

If a ball to be replaced is placed other than on the spot from which it was lifted or moved and the error is not corrected as provided in Rule 20-6, the player incurs the general penalty, loss of hole in match play or two strokes in stroke play, for a breach of the applicable Rule.

Its simple, no lawyer needed, put it back on the spot from which you lifted it.  I don't think its unreasonable to expect a professional in a particular field to be knowledgeable about the rules that govern his profession.  In construction, mason foremen are required to understand OSHA rules regarding the scaffolding they work on, and a host of other regulations.  Pro golfers, making thousands of times as much as mason foremen, should be at least as conversant with the rules of golf, and pay just as much attention to following those rules.

Edited by DaveP043

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15 minutes ago, RH31 said:

Yes. I think action should be taken before the start of the next round or playoff or it's moot. Hey if the perpetrator wants to w/d, that's fine. To me, it's not any worse than a foul committed in the final round being spotted the next day.

The event is a 72-hole event. Things that occur in all 72 holes affect the event. The cut-off time that makes the most sense to many - and most importantly to those who wrote the rules - is that the "close of competition" is a perfectly fine time to cut these things off.

Again, a player found to have broken the rules likely does not WANT to get away with it simply because the calendar changed or the next round began. They'd be outed as not deserving the score they have and, like Tiger even after he had the extra two added to his score, be asked to WD.

I think it's possible you're over-reacting to ONE very specific event that doesn't feel "right." But if you were to change it to "before the start of the next round" and people will still complain that it's unfair, because some players have 24 minutes between rounds and others have over 24 hours.

There's a separate topic on the scorecard thing…

 

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8 minutes ago, DrvFrShow said:

All in all this isn't a big deal to me. I don't sit around watching a bunch of millionaires hit a white ball around on a golf course over the weekend. So it's not like this impacts my life other than the fact that it's finally getting warmer out and we've finally had three days in a row where it hasn't rained. If it's nice out, I'd rather be outside doing something myself. It's also been about 12 years since I watched an NFL game. 

I feel the same way. I only watch sports because the pros can do some amazing things. :beer:

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39 minutes ago, HitAndGiggle said:

Heck...why not see something like this on day 2 of a tourney, place a bet, then phone it in on the close of day 4?

What a smart idea!  I hope the person who called this in was near a sports book to get in a bet against Lexi for the final round.  I'll be watching the Masters like a hawk from Vegas just in case something like this happens again.

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7 minutes ago, allenc said:

What a smart idea!  I hope the person who called this in was near a sports book to get in a bet against Lexi for the final round.  I'll be watching the Masters like a hawk from Vegas just in case something like this happens again.

LOL! I could play golf with this person...

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Okay, from Shorty's vertical shot, I have to go with that she screwed up. I don't believe that she's a bad person. But I don't feel the penalty fit the crime. 

1) I don't understand why they allow players to fix ball marks, but not tap down spike marks that are in their putting line. The answer - it's the rules - is not an answer. I'd like to know why that's the rule.

2) If a player does this crap, can't their playing partners call them on it? Of course I noticed Pettersen was her playing partner and probably didn't want any more negative press after the match play incident.

3) Did the punishment fit the crime? 4 strokes? Granted in 2015 it would have been DQ, but under the "Tiger Masters Rule" she would have been given a retroactive 2 stroke penalty with the DQ waived because like Tiger, she's one of the most popular players on their tour. However, had this been one of the players in the back of the pack, we can assume it would have resulted in a DQ in 2015. 

4) So this was in effect a $250,000 fine for not correctly placing the ball. 2 strokes + 2 strokes. Perhaps they need to think about how many strokes they should apply for signing an incorrect scorecard if the penalty was one not noticed by players or officials on the course at the time it happened? We're not talking about someone kicking their ball 10 feet here. We're talking about someone who was careless in placing their ball maker, and then replaced their ball in line with it and the hole. That's what it looked like. Then Wayne said he wished it the vid had continued because she seems to have noticed and marked it again and replaced her ball trying to fix the problem, again resulting in playing from the wrong place because you're not supposed to do that either. Kind of like noticing you're going over the speed limit then seeing a cop car and hitting the brakes - not that you're a bad person intentionally going over the speed limit, just that you noticed, fixed the problem, and the cop let you by.

So perhaps this is why Pettersen let it slide and didn't notify the official? We'll never know. 

Maybe this type of penalty should be 1 stroke because I don't really see much of an advantage gained. Maybe they should issue amended scorecards to players to sign if someone phones it in. If a player touched a couple grains of sand on their backswing and didn't notice, no one present noticed, but it was caught on an HDTV close up in 4K and someone phoned it in a day later, issue an amended scorecard. If a player dropped out of a hazard, took an unplayable and failed to count the penalty strokes, that's an incorrect scorecard.

How does this affect me? Not at all. I don't play for money. I play to get out in the sunshine and relax. 

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I apologize for the lateness of this comment, but I finally got around to watching what she did, and to me, it looks like she could have done it intentionally.   She addresses her ball, then she looks at something, then she puts her marker down behind the ball but to one side, then she picks up her ball, and puts it back down on the other side of the ball marker.   She moved her ball to the side very clearly by putting her mark down at an angle to the path of the putt, and then moving her ball to the other side of the ball marker. 

I looked at that and said waaaaait a minute.   That's like a little magic trick.  She changed the path of her putt.  It's hard to see how she could have done that by accident. 

I cannot see a spike mark of bump or anything that was in her way, so I have no idea what her motivation could have been and of course I have no idea if she actually did it intentionally, but on video, it is very clear.  

 

Edited by Marty2019

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5 hours ago, iacas said:

The event is a 72-hole event. Things that occur in all 72 holes affect the event. The cut-off time that makes the most sense to many - and most importantly to those who wrote the rules - is that the "close of competition" is a perfectly fine time to cut these things off.

Again, a player found to have broken the rules likely does not WANT to get away with it simply because the calendar changed or the next round began. They'd be outed as not deserving the score they have and, like Tiger even after he had the extra two added to his score, be asked to WD.

I think it's possible you're over-reacting to ONE very specific event that doesn't feel "right." But if you were to change it to "before the start of the next round" and people will still complain that it's unfair, because some players have 24 minutes between rounds and others have over 24 hours.

The rules are the rules, but the rules are antiquated.  This rule, in particular, does not take into consideration on-demand access or DVR capabilities.  I have more qualms with the incorrect scorecard ruling.  However, if you're willing to drop a dime from your couch, be willing to put your name on it.  Refs in other sports can't make bad calls anonymously, why should Joe, TV viewer that has taken a rules class or two and wishes he was between the ropes.

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16 minutes ago, ElWagonne said:

The rules are the rules, but the rules are antiquated.  This rule, in particular, does not take into consideration on-demand access or DVR capabilities.

Someone called in back in 1987 and had Craig Stadler DQed from a tournament for kneeling on a towel. Not a lot of DVRs and on-demand back then.

And to the idea of DVRs… I say good! They help us get closer to the truth. Don't want to be caught breaching a rule after you've signed your scorecard? Try this: don't breach the rules and fail to include the penalty on your scorecard!

16 minutes ago, ElWagonne said:

However, if you're willing to drop a dime from your couch, be willing to put your name on it.

The guy sent an email. Pretty sure his (or her) name was on it. He probably knew someone on the tournament committee, I'd wager.

16 minutes ago, ElWagonne said:

Refs in other sports can't make bad calls anonymously, why should Joe, TV viewer that has taken a rules class or two and wishes he was between the ropes.

Always with the disparaging remarks, when really, you have no idea whatsoever who it was that emailed or what his or her motivations were.

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1 minute ago, iacas said:

Someone called in back in 1987 and had Craig Stadler DQed from a tournament for kneeling on a towel. Not a lot of DVRs and on-demand back then.

And to the idea of DVRs… I say good! They help us get closer to the truth. Don't want to be caught breaching a rule after you've signed your scorecard? Try this: don't breach the rules and fail to include the penalty on your scorecard!

The guy sent an email. Pretty sure his (or her) name was on it. He probably knew someone on the tournament committee, I'd wager.

Always with the disparaging remarks, when really, you have no idea whatsoever who it was that emailed or what his or her motivations were.

Please explain how this was disparaging.  Seriously.  We're on different sides of the fence here, but for you to say that my remarks were disparaging and to include the word 'always' is foul.  I would like for you to look back on my other posts to find other disparaging remarks.

Back to the debate at hand.  Point 1 & 2), you're correct, although kneeling on a towel is a bit more obvious than marking a put a 1/2 inch off the spot. You're right about the emailer probably having some inside knowledge.  And lastly, I don't know the person's intent or motivation.  My justification is this, just like in the ladies basketball game Friday, the flagrant call was made after the fact, but not anonymously.  That was bad.  This was mad after the fact and is bad.  

I respect you and your site, but your remark at the end was uncalled for.  

 

CL

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11 minutes ago, ElWagonne said:

Please explain how this was disparaging.

You disparaged the person who emailed in by calling him "Joe Schmoe," sitting on his "couch," a guy "who has taken a rules class or two" and who "wishes he was between the ropes." It wasn't the worst - other people have called the guy a loser, a fat guy, drooling on himself, sitting in his underwear, etc.

People all disparage the person who calls or emails in, when they have no idea who it was. It may have been someone high up in the R&A or USGA, for all we know. It may have been a huge Lexi Thompson fan who didn't want her to win and then have this video surface. You have no idea, but you (and others - most worse than you) made disparaging remarks about the individual.

11 minutes ago, ElWagonne said:

We're on different sides of the fence here, but for you to say that my remarks were disparaging and to include the word 'always' is foul.  I would like for you to look back on my other posts to find other disparaging remarks.

I think you grossly misunderstood my post.

I quoted the part that was disparaging. Not of me, but of the emailer.

11 minutes ago, ElWagonne said:

Back to the debate at hand.  Point 1 & 2), you're correct, although kneeling on a towel is a bit more obvious than marking a put a 1/2 inch off the spot.

FWIW it was at least 0.7". Fact remains that technology isn't necessary to call in rules infractions.

11 minutes ago, ElWagonne said:

My justification is this, just like in the ladies basketball game Friday, the flagrant call was made after the fact, but not anonymously.  That was bad.  This was mad after the fact and is bad.

I think it's good. And please don't compare golf to other sports. It's a non-starter. Other sports don't require you to referee yourself.

11 minutes ago, ElWagonne said:

I respect you and your site, but your remark at the end was uncalled for.

It wasn't, and I still think you're misunderstanding it.

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All in all, it was disappointing.  The rule is what the rule is presently.  Not what I "wish" it to be.  I can't know her intention, but at the very least it was careless.  Marking the ball from the side is dangerous.  If you don't have the reference point of the ball and the hole in a line, there's a potential for a mistake (unless you have some type of reference point on your marker).  What bugged me most is after they told her, she again marked her ball from the side, even though she would not be in the line or through-line of her playing partner.  I actually yelled at my TV "what are you doing?".  Very careless in my mind. 

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35 minutes ago, iacas said:

You disparaged the person who emailed in by calling him "Joe Schmoe," a guy "who has taken a rules class or two" and who "wishes he was between the ropes." It wasn't the worst - other people have called the guy a loser, a fat guy, drooling on himself, sitting in his underwear, etc.

People all disparage the person who calls or emails in, when they have no idea who it was. It may have been someone high up in the R&A or USGA, for all we know. It may have been a huge Lexi Thompson fan who didn't want her to win and then have this video surface. You have no idea, but you (and others - most worse than you) made disparaging remarks about the individual.

I think you grossly misunderstood my post.

I quoted the part that was disparaging. Not of me, but of the emailer.

FWIW it was at least 0.7". Fact remains that technology isn't necessary to call in rules infractions.

I think it's good. And please don't compare golf to other sports. It's a non-starter. Other sports don't require you to referee yourself.

It wasn't, and I still think you're misunderstanding it.

I'll admit that after thinking about it, maybe, just maybe, I misunderstood.  Your remark was still careless, but don't fret over it, I won't.  All in all, LeftRightLeft explained the situation the way I see it.  It was definitely careless, because we'd be foolish to randomly assume that she had malicious intent over a putt at least 1/2 of casual golfers would pick up.  People making rulings from outside the ropes has always been something that rubbed me the wrong way, just my thought.  Having the ruling occur the day after just shined a bigger light on it.  

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10 hours ago, iacas said:

Add Wayne DeFrancesco to the growing list of people who think she cheated:

I'm still on the side of giving the benefit of the doubt, but it's no longer without pause.

I didn't realize it until I watched this video, but Wayne makes an interesting observation that it doesn't appear that she originally placed her ball mark behind the ball in line with the hole.

lexi.PNG.d3d4021279bd51aade30c2844702cc5f.PNG

I say this in all seriousness...if markers like this were used instead of round objects, it would prevent things like this from occurring, or make it more noticeable to playing companions if the ball wasn't replaced in the same spot:

b272030e_2014-05-2209_27_22.jpeg.684b8c285d9d7a58baf60e3dcd122950.jpeg

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12 hours ago, 1badbadger said:

I didn't realize it until I watched this video, but Wayne makes an interesting observation that it doesn't appear that she originally placed her ball mark behind the ball in line with the hole.

And why did that happen, she was standing right on top of it, NOT reaching in from the side in order to avoid stepping on someone's line etc.

If the error came from the issue of her position, then how do you explain that she put it down in a different spot when she had not moved from the same position from where she picked it up

12 hours ago, 1badbadger said:

I say this in all seriousness...if markers like this were used instead of round objects, it would prevent things like this from occurring, or make it more noticeable to playing companions if the ball wasn't replaced in the same spot:

In all seriousness you are clutching at the most slender of straws trying to defend the undefendable.

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16 hours ago, RH31 said:

I don't understand why so many are hell bent on accusing her of cheating. She's the only one that will ever know if it was on purpose.

Labeling someone a cheater on what could've been an honest mistake....they better hope they don't goof up when someone's watching...Karma can be a nasty bitch.

But the thing is, she didn't lift the ball more than an inch off the ground.   One inch off the ground and one inch over.   She didn't clean it, or examine it, or align some sort of line on the ball, or anything.  She just moved it over.  Why, I have no idea.   But it looks like her entire intent was to move the ball over an inch to the left of the original line.  Because that was her entire action.   She just slid it over an inch.  

Again, none of us know if she intended to cheat.   It's possible that some players do these little bitty adjustments, bend the rules, and don't think about it.  None of us know what was in her mind.  But I'm starting to think she got off light.   Because she didn't exhibit any purpose other than moving it over. 

 

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7 hours ago, 1badbadger said:

I didn't realize it until I watched this video, but Wayne makes an interesting observation that it doesn't appear that she originally placed her ball mark behind the ball in line with the hole.

lexi.PNG.d3d4021279bd51aade30c2844702cc5f.PNG

I say this in all seriousness...if markers like this were used instead of round objects, it would prevent things like this from occurring, or make it more noticeable to playing companions if the ball wasn't replaced in the same spot:

b272030e_2014-05-2209_27_22.jpeg.684b8c285d9d7a58baf60e3dcd122950.jpeg

I've been meaning to mention the TST ball marker. A lot more elegant than lasers. :-)

In the video, Jane Blalock is mentioned, whom I knew nothing about, here's an SI piece I read to get up to speed:

https://www.si.com/vault/1972/06/19/613598/keeping-a-close-eye-on-the-ball

 

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