Who Can Call Rule Violations? Should it change? (another Lexi-based topic)

[DaveP043]

I can recognize that there's a variation in the level of televised scrutiny among players, based on relative popularity and on position in the tournament standings.  I can accept that disparity and still believe its more important to get things right than it is to treat every player "equally".  Its not like there are different rules for different players, they're all required to do the same things.  

 

[Jack Watson]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

This is basically what happened to Anna Nordquist. It was the right thing then, and it would be the right thing in the scenario above. It's the player's responsibility to not touch the sand in a hazard in that fashion. Why get your club so close to the sand?

We can't write rules that try to determine whether advantages were gained. And for every scenario you come up with, I can come up with one where you'd vote the opposite. The rules don't judge, they simply set forth the processes.

Suppose there's a player looking to keep his PGA Tour card. He's a 20-year veteran and has earned $100M playing golf, but he'd like to cling to life a little longer. He needs to finish top twenty in some late-season event to earn enough cash. Saturday morning, starting in 40th, he drives it into someone's back yard but not OB. He's alone with his caddie (his brother), and his playing partner is on the other side of the fairway. It's 9am and the crowds don't care about an over-the-hill 44-year-old biding his time until the Champions Tour.

He has a horrible lie. He soles his club behind it. That doesn't help. He pushes down a little. Still nothing. So he bumps the ball forward a few inches onto a nice tuft of grass. Plays his shot to the green. Makes birdie.

The next day the homeowners return and review their motion detected camera footage. They see a pro cheating. They pass the footage on to the tournament committee (they're members at the course, after all, and know the head pro and a few other people who are somewhat connected). The evidence is indisputable.

The pro had crept into a tie for 15th. The four strokes knocks him back to T24 and out of contention keeping his scorecard.

Fair? Yeah, you bet.

What if his caddie had nudged the ball without the player seeing it? Still fair? Yes, again.

The rules don't judge whether advantages are gained, the person's life situation, etc. The scorecard rule under 6-6d only speaks to whether a competitor incurs a penalty they didn't know they incurred. Don't want to brush the sand, Anna? Don't put your club within an inch of it.

 

What if this happened first or second round.  Video surfaces mid third and the cut line changes?

so maybe another tour veteran misses cut who should have played the full tournament?

Is that fair?  A player missed the cut who should have been playing.  How would you propose reconciling this?

[Marty2019]

3 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

What if this happened first or second round.  Video surfaces mid third and the cut line changes?

so maybe another tour veteran misses cut who should have played the full tournament?

Is that fair?  A player missed the cut who should have been playing.  How would you propose reconciling this?

If it's mid-third, if he's around, or if he can get back in time, let him tee off.   But at the very least, record him as having made the cut and give him the prize money for last place among the players who made the cut.  

 

 

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

What if this happened first or second round.  Video surfaces mid third and the cut line changes?

so maybe another tour veteran misses cut who should have played the full tournament?

Is that fair?  A player missed the cut who should have been playing.  How would you propose reconciling this?

I think that what @Marty2019 said is fine.

And again, as I said elsewhere, the player who broke the rules is once again to blame, not the tournament officials who enforced the rules. Any question of "fairness" is again directed at the player.

Credit the players with a made cut and last-place money. They lose the chance to move up the leaderboard, but even moving up ten spots is less than $1k, and more players making the cut would further reduce that amount.

Also, let's all not lose sight of the fact that this rule applies to ALL events. Golf tournaments should be conducted as close to the "truth" as possible.

[Jack Watson]

16 minutes ago, Marty2019 said:

If it's mid-third, if he's around, or if he can get back in time, let him tee off.   But at the very least, record him as having made the cut and give him the prize money for last place among the players who made the cut.  

 

 

I am not sure where I stand on this.  I have not thought it through.  Say worst case scenario it's fourth round late for purposes of discussion.

On one hand the player/s who made the cut but did not get to play might have affected the outcome or caught lightning in a bottle and won.  But due to another players error they were never given their fair chance to do so.

on the other hand getting something is better than nothing.

 

Edited April 7, 2017 by Jack Watson

[iacas]

Just now, Jack Watson said:

I am not sure where I stand on this.  I have not thought it through.  

On one hand the player/s who made the cut but did not get to play might have affected the outcome or caught lightning in a bottle and won.  But due to another players error they were never given their fair chance to do so.

on the other hand getting something is better than nothing.

I imagine that if you gave the players who "erroneously" MCed these choices:

• We don't penalize the player and nothing changes. Y'all MCed and they're still in the tournament earning money.
• We penalize the player, they're out with an MC or a DQ, and you get credit for making a cut and finishing T70.

They'll take the second option every time.

And of course, this situation would only occur if:

• the penalized player moves from inside the cut line to outside of it.
• the cut came at exactly 70 players. Even if it was 71, it would still have been top 70 and ties, so nothing else would change.

[jamo]

9 hours ago, mvmac said:

This is basically how I feel and why I begrudgingly voted viewers can call/email. I don't like the idea of someone outside the ropes having any influence on what happens inside the ropes but if there is a clear violation then something needs to be done.

Also important to understand that someone calling in is only informing, it's up to the officials/committee how they want to proceed.

Jack Nicklaus spoke about this earlier in the week and said in his day they governed themselves. If they saw a player violate the rules then they would inform the director of the tournament and it would be handled internally, nothing was said publicly. Jack also said that while it’s a player’s obligation to report a blatant rules violation, it’s best to bring it up quietly. 

I agree with Jack and I think it would be better for the tours to steer more in this direction. Viewers should have the right to call in but the people receiving the information need to use good judgement (some common sense) in how they go about it and what they tell the public. For example they do not need to say a viewer emailed in, merely that upon review of the tape they became aware of a violation and acted accordingly. 

I disagree with the thinking that viewers shouldn't be able to call in is because it's unfair to the players that get more screen time. If you're on camera more than everyone else that means you're making more money than everyone else so deal with it. And you're a professional golfer, you should have a strong understanding of the rules. Lexi screwed herself by being careless with the rules.

I think if the tours just stopped saying that it was an outsider who called/emailed in there would be a huge difference in how it's taken by the public.

[Patch]

I voted "yes". Golf is a game of honor and integrity.

My opinion is that not all golfers, pro, or otherwise are honerable, and/or play with integrity. Anything that is done to help keep the game closer to that honerable/integrity line is a good thing. Especially in the pro ranks. 

Until the rules  of golf are changed to accommodate those who refuse, or can't understand, and follow them, then the rules need to be enforced in anyway possible, when needed. 

Edited April 7, 2017 by Patch

[DrvFrShow]

The thing about withholding the fact that a viewer called in the penalty is that someone in the office will leak that fact. We know that people can't keep their mouths shut. It will get to the press. So if you're going to use viewer call ins, it's best to be open about it. Names of the viewers should remain confidential after all the video is the evidence.

I just hope the tournament remembers to use the video directly from the network itself, and not a clip sent in by the viewer - if they sent one in - digital video can be edited very easily these days. And I'm not thinking about Lexi, here. Whether intentional or not, she was busted. There's too much evidence and too many independent copies around. But I've seen some video editing software that is absolutely frightening. 

Also when an official tells the player, the network has parabolic mics picking up the conversation. There's no screening out the conversation. Everyone knows that a viewer called it in anyway.