Water hazard: dropped a ball then found the first?

[krupa]

The other day I thought I put my ball in a pond.  I was actually hitting my shot from a position below the pond, so I didn't see the ball land, but I thought I heard a splash.  So I walked up, dropped a ball and played it.  

When I walked around the pond, I found my first ball in some tall rough.  (Yes, it was definitely my original ball.)  Am I obligated to play the new ball or can I continue with the first?

I don't think the new rules proposals included hitting provisionals in this situation, do they?

Edited April 21, 2017 by krupa

[Hardspoon]

10 minutes ago, krupa said:

The other day I thought I put my ball in a pond.  I was actually hitting my shot from a position below the pond, so I didn't see the ball land, but I thought I heard a splash.  So I walked up, dropped a ball and played it.  

When I walked around the pond, I found my first ball in some tall rough.  (Yes, it was definitely my original ball.)  Am I obligated to play the new ball or can I continue with the first?

I don't think the new rules proposals included hitting provisionals in this situation, do they?

Yes, you have to play the new ball.  If your ball was found outside of a water hazard, barring some extenuating circumstance (all of your playing partners also vouched for the "splash", or something) you also earned a penalty for playing from the wrong place.  This is because you couldn't have been "virtually certain" that it was in the hazard.  For more:

Someone more knowledgeable can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you would have been allowed to play a provisional, since the tall rough around the hazard meant that it may have been lost outside the hazard.

And no, the proposed rules changes don't include any revision to these rules.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Hardspoon

[krupa]

Thanks!

 I was alone at the time, so no playing partners could chime in.  Not only was I alone on the hole but totally alone on the course so my "pace of play" argument is a little weak, but I dropped my ball to save the time of walking around the pond to look then maybe walk back around if I couldn't find it.

[DaveP043]

As I see it, there are three possibilities once you've hit that first shot.  The ball could be found, it could be lost outside the hazard, and it could be in the hazard.  If you're not virtually certain its in the hazard, you'd be allowed to play a provisional in case its lost outside the hazard.  When you find the original outside the hazard, the original remains in play, the provisional is out of play.  If you had found the original in the hazard, the provisional would be out of play, and you'd have to go back and drop appropriately (or play it from the hazard).  If you don't find the original, the provisional is in play.  The important thing is to be clear as to WHY you are playing a provisional.

And to your last question, I haven't checked to be sure, but I don't believe the proposed rules change the use of provisionals.

[Groucho Valentine]

I dont know if the question has been answered or not, but from a ruling i got in a tourney i learned you cant assume a ball in a hazard. You or a partner has to confirm it. So its a lost ball and you have play from the previous location. But since you found it, it adds a weird quirk. If i was in a tournament, I would have played both balls in and just assumed i would have got a penalty for hitting a wrong ball. 

[kpaulhus]

This happened to me at my Mid Am qualifier. You have to play the second ball if you thought your first went into the hazard. 

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, Groucho Valentine said:

I dont know if the question has been answered or not, but from a ruling i got in a tourney i learned you cant assume a ball in a hazard. You or a partner has to confirm it. So its a lost ball and you have play from the previous location. But since you found it, it adds a weird quirk. If i was in a tournament, I would have played both balls in and just assumed i would have got a penalty for hitting a wrong ball. 

 

Just now, kpaulhus said:

This happened to me at my Mid Am qualifier. You have to play the second ball if you thought your first went into the hazard. 

These both strike me as correct.  If you're "virtually certain" that your original is in the hazard, and you hit another, the second ball is in play.  But I believe the standard for "virtual certainty" is a little stronger than simply thinking your ball is in the hazard.  If you're not virtually certain, you can play a provisional, but you have to announce your intention to play a provisional.  If you find your original, no matter whether its in the hazard or not, the provisional is no longer available to play, you proceed with the original.  By proceeding, I mean you either play it as it lies, or take a drop under hazard rules, or even unplayable lie rules, if you choose that route.

[David in FL]

There is an approved local rule that allows for the play of a provisional ball under Rule 26-1.  The rule is underutilized in my opinion, in part because so many people don't even know that it exists.

 

If a water hazard (including a lateral water hazard) is of such size and shape and/or located in such a position that:

(i) it would be impracticable to determine whether the ball is in the hazard or to do so would unduly delay play, and

(ii) if the original ball is not found, it is known or virtually certain that it is in the water hazard,

the Committee may introduce a Local Rule permitting the play of a ball provisionally under Rule 26-1. The ball is played provisionally under any of the applicable options under Rule 26-1 or any applicable Local Rule. In such a case, if a ball is played provisionally and the original ball is in a water hazard, the player may play the original ball as it lies or continue with the ball played provisionally, but he may not proceed under Rule 26-1 with regard to the original ball.

In these circumstances, the following Local Rule is recommended:

“If there is doubt whether a ball is in or is lost in the water hazard (specify location), the player may play another ball provisionally under any of the applicable options in Rule 26-1.

If the original ball is found outside the water hazard, the player must continue play with it.

If the original ball is found in the water hazard, the player may either play the original ball as it lies or continue with the ball played provisionally under Rule 26-1.

If the original ball is not found or identified within the five-minute search period, the player must continue with the ball played provisionally.

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF LOCAL RULE:

Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.”

 

Remember, playing amongst yourselves, you are in effect operating as your own committee, and may enact approved local rules as you see fit.  Just take care when competing outside your group that you don't inadvertently run afoul of the rules by assuming that a local rule may be in place when it is not.

[iacas]

5 hours ago, David in FL said:

Remember, playing amongst yourselves, you are in effect operating as your own committee, and may enact approved local rules as you see fit.

That is not accurate at all. Look up the definition of the Committee.

---

And, all the Local Rule basically does is let you play under stroke-and-distance OR play the original ball. So it's pretty strict - you don't get to play under any of the other water hazard rules.

So… it's basically the same as playing a provisional because you aren't virtually certain it's in the hazard.

[Aflighter]

Why would you even want to play the provisional because you would be hitting 4 if you did where as the original if found within 5 mins you could take unplayable and hit 3 or just try to hit it.Sorry, forgot you said you already hit the provisional again before finding ball. I would think once you hit the provisional again then your stuck with playing it.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Aflighter

[David in FL]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

That is not accurate at all. Look up the definition of the Committee.

COMMITTEE 

The “Committee” is the committee in charge of the competition or, if the matter does not arise in a competition, the committee in charge of the course.

 

When my buddies and I are playing, we are competing, and as such, we act as our own committee.  I guess you could argue that if you're playing alone, or not in any way "competing", then you're not the committee, but I don't think I've played more than a handful of such rounds in my entire life.  Of course, ymmv.

 It's also worth noting, that since a solo round is no longer able to be entered for handicap, playing alone and enacting appropriate, approved local rules wouldn't even qualify as a potential misstep in posting a score.

 

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

---

And, all the Local Rule basically does is let you play under stroke-and-distance OR play the original ball. So it's pretty strict - you don't get to play under any of the other water hazard rules.

So… it's basically the same as playing a provisional because you aren't virtually certain it's in the hazard.

Having the option to play the ball as it lies in the hazard is a big, and important difference, especially as it relates to pace of play.  It's also the only time I can think of (remind me if I'm wrong) where the rules give you the option of choosing between 2 different balls, which one to deem in play.

Again, a local rule that is very useful in a number of situations and too seldom used in my opinion.

Edited April 21, 2017 by David in FL

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, David in FL said:

When my buddies and I are playing, we are competing, and as such, we act as our own committee.

No, you're not. The committee that is in charge of the course is the "committee." They're responsible for creating and setting the Local Rules. You're not the committee just because you and your buddies have a few wagers going on.

9 minutes ago, David in FL said:

It's also the only time I can think of (remind me if I'm wrong) where the rules give you the option of choosing between 2 different balls, which one to deem in play.

There are a few times, called "Choosies" by some people, when you get to choose between two balls.

[David in FL]

Just now, iacas said:

No, you're not. The committee that is in charge of the course is the "committee." They're responsible for creating and setting the Local Rules. You're not the committee just because you and your buddies have a few wagers going on.

Not according to the definition...  

Are we going to change the course markings?  Of course not.  But we are going to evaluate rules situations and come to our own decisions, as well as decide whether to enact various local rules, most commonly those that apply to course conditions.  Lift clean and place, embedded ball through the green, relief from aeration holes, etc...

I imagine you do the same.  

[iacas]

18 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Not according to the definition...  

David, you're wrong. You're not the Committee. This isn't up for debate, and it's OT for this thread.

18 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Are we going to change the course markings? Of course not.  But we are going to evaluate rules situations and come to our own decisions, as well as decide whether to enact various local rules, most commonly those that apply to course conditions.  Lift clean and place, embedded ball through the green, relief from aeration holes, etc...

I imagine you do the same.  

No, I don't, because that's for the course to determine.

[phillyk]

20 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Not according to the definition...   

Iacas is right, you're wrong here.  The committee is designated by the course/professional, not a random person playing golf that day.  Local rules also apply specifically to a course, not course to course.  If a course does not have a lift, clean, and place in effect, you may not decide on your own to do so.

[David in FL]

4 minutes ago, phillyk said:

Iacas is right, you're wrong here.  The committee is designated by the course/professional, not a random person playing golf that day.  Local rules also apply specifically to a course, not course to course.  If a course does not have a lift, clean, and place in effect, you may not decide on your own to do so.

Within the competition we are in charge of, we certainly may.  Just as we make rulings as to the rules themselves.  

I'll bow out now since the discussion has been deemed OT.

[iacas]

20 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Within the competition we are in charge of, we certainly may.  Just as we make rulings as to the rules themselves.

No. You're not. Your wagering, etc. is not a "competition." So you're also violating handicapping rules too if you're making up your own local rules.

Last post on this. It is both a fact and OT.

[WestKyGolfer]

Back to the OP. You cannot play a provisional for a ball that is KVC in a water hazard, unless the local rule is in effect.The bar for KVC is high.

 

You can play a provisional for a ball that may be lost outside of a water hazard.

 

If you have determined that a ball is KVC in a water hazard you may drop a ball under rule 27-1 and that becomes the ball in play, if the original ball is found, whether in the hazard or outside of it, it is abandoned.