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War Eagle

Mike Austin

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Please take your time in responding to me. Be brutal if you want. Be direct.

But I'd try to make sure the facts supported what you have to say, @MRugroden. Unlike a few things you've already said.

P.S. Maybe Mike Austin should have told golfers to avoid stairs. Would've saved DJ a back injury just this year.

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Austin had a great swing but other than the "macro" moves I don't see many similarities to DJ.

- Austin had a slightly weak or neutral grip, DJ uses a strong one
- Austin raised his left heel on the backswing 
- DJ has a much more flexed lead wrist on the backswing and downswing
- Austin goes into right pelvic tilt and with more axis tilt on the downswing where DJ maintains left pelvic tilt longer
- DJ is more rotational while Austin had more "leg drive".

AustinFullSequence.jpgDustin-Johnson-swing-sequence-faceon-1.jpgDustin-Johnson-swing-sequence-faceon-2.jpg

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1 hour ago, War Eagle said:

Did Austin or Dunaway ever win a tournament at the pro level ? 

Doesn't seem like it. Austin's most notable thing setting the driving record.

From Wikipedia:

Quote

For years Austin was well known by professional golfers for his length off the tee. But it was one drive in 1974 that secured his name in history. While playing in the U.S. National Seniors Tournament, at the Winterwood Golf Course (now the Desert Rose) Austin was put in a foursome with PGA Champion Chandler Harper. After hitting several 400-yard drives, Chandler said, "Mike, let's see you really let one go." Austin drove the green on 450-yard par 4. It carried to the edge of the green, bounced over and rolled past the pin and off the back edge. In a 2003 interview, Chandler said he found a ball on the next tee box and called to Austin, "This is impossible, but there is a ball over here." They identified the ball as Austin's and stepped off the distance back to the center of the green. The drive was 515 yards. GBWW no longer recognizes the world's longest drive in their book.

Several factors make this record feat especially amazing, although there was a tailwind estimated at 25 mph. The drive was done on level ground, using a persimmon wood driver with 10 degrees of loft and a 43.5" extra-stiff steel shaft, the ball was a soft balata and Mike Austin was 64 years old. The improved technology of today should achieve far greater distances in the same conditions.

 

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2 hours ago, War Eagle said:

Did Austin or Dunaway ever win a tournament at the pro level ? 

https://dunawaylong.com/ Here's Dunaway's site.  He was taught by Austin.  Dunaway won at the pro level for long drive.

Since it seems to be a prerequisite to have won a pro tournament to be credible as a teaching pro then let's ask the question.  How many tournaments has iacas won?  mvmac?  How many have you won?  

 

Personally, I think Don Trahan gets a raw deal.  He should be rated one of the top rated teachers in the country.

Edited by MRugroden

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26 minutes ago, MRugroden said:

Since it seems to be a prerequisite to have won a pro tournament to be credible as a teaching pro then let's ask the question.  How many tournaments has iacas won?  mvmac?  How many have you won?  

You make a fair point about how an instructor doesn't have to have won a PGA Tour event to be a good instructor. It is not a prerequisite. The trouble everyone has, is folks claiming to have a secret. After a person spends x amount of dollars they will get the secret. It is like Chris Rock said "There is no sex in the Champagne room". The idea being there is no secret. Instructors shouldn't claim there is one. 

Improvement is a road, a very long one wrought with distractions, curves, bumps, all sorts of stuff. Many of us don't have the patience or athletic ability to do many of things that instructors ask us to do. 

You need to find your own road. If it is Mike Austin, great, do it. Post your progress weekly, monthly, whatever and enjoy the ride. Share it with us.

For what its worth, what I look for in an instructor is someone who has taken regular joe's like me who sit in front of computers for most of the day and improves us. Taking a athletic kid and making him swing great is nice to see, but far from making a hack like me better. Show me videos of 45 year old men who are 15 handicappers making (and most importantly maintaining) improvements. That is the kind of thing that interest me.

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3 hours ago, MRugroden said:

https://dunawaylong.com/ Here's Dunaway's site.  He was taught by Austin.  Dunaway won at the pro level for long drive.

I don't claim to be an instructor. Since Austin played before the onset of modern stats, how do you know he was one of the straightest hitters ? Long is no good if you end up in the trees.

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2 hours ago, MRugroden said:

Since it seems to be a prerequisite to have won a pro tournament to be credible as a teaching pro then let's ask the question.  How many tournaments has iacas won?  mvmac?  How many have you won?  

Nobody said anything about having to win a tournament to be able to teach. Funny I was almost going to say something along those lines in my last post. I honestly don't know much about Austin's philosophy but if the info is good then it's good no matter who it's coming from.

My critique (and others) is about using Austin's swing as a model, saying it's one of the greatest swings of all time or saying that Austin's swing looks like Dustin Johnson's swing.

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2 hours ago, MRugroden said:

Since it seems to be a prerequisite to have won a pro tournament to be credible as a teaching pro then let's ask the question.  How many tournaments has iacas won?  mvmac?  How many have you won?  

I don't think anyone said that at all. You'll go a lot further promoting your point of view if you aren't so aggressive and bitter with your responses.

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3 hours ago, MRugroden said:

Since it seems to be a prerequisite to have won a pro tournament to be credible as a teaching pro then let's ask the question.  How many tournaments has iacas won?  mvmac?  How many have you won?  

I don't think anyone's made that a prerequisite. I'm on record as saying PGA Tour players often make the worst instructors because they've never had to struggle to figure things out. They have a hard time knowing how it feels to not be able to hit a golf ball really well.

But… how about you stop ducking my response? I put some time into responding to your post, illustrated and created some images, successfully (IMO) refuted some of the things you said, etc. What is your response to that post?

2 hours ago, mchepp said:

You need to find your own road. If it is Mike Austin, great, do it. Post your progress weekly, monthly, whatever and enjoy the ride. Share it with us.

Right. @MRugroden, even if we can't reach a point of agreement on just how awesome Mike Austin's teaching method is, we still hope you post your swing in a Member Swing thread, and participate in other topics, instructional or otherwise. I like and ask that people challenge me, and the things I believe to be true, just as I've done with your post above.

39 minutes ago, mvmac said:

I honestly don't know much about Austin's philosophy but if the info is good then it's good no matter who it's coming from.

Right. Mike Austin's method seems to produce all 5 Simple Keys®. In that vein, it's a perfectly valid method or swing just as many others are.

39 minutes ago, mvmac said:

My critique (and others) is about using Austin's swing as a model, saying it's one of the greatest swings of all time or saying that Austin's swing looks like Dustin Johnson's swing.

Yeah, I too am not a big fan of "model" swings as they ask everyone to conform to the same things that aren't commonalities, but more "style points" or the like.

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Hi iacas,

Can I take up the challenge on behalf of MRugroden. But I want to do it in a civil and positive way without attacking people as you have in this forum post. You've made allot of statements and claims that you state are facts that I believe are incorrect.

I'm not a Mike Austin disciple but he (Mike Austin) and many other very good/great golfers either pro or amateur share many certain key similarities notwithstanding that they do not swing the same way or look like they are swinging in the same way. However, in a great percentage of good/great golfers of the past and contemporary,  there are certain swing keys that are common and sometimes not present at all. However, the fundamental keys Mike Austin did actually map for us. Some of these keys were exaggerated (over emphasised) by Mike Austin but the language that he used is different to the way we communicate present day. The words that he used cannot be easily deciphered and put into context when the vocabulary of his era makes it difficult for us to slot it into our frame of reference when we speak and judge swing mechanics.

I hope that you take up my challenge as I hope to glean your knowledge as we run through the entire process so that all that may read this forum post benefit from it in improving their swing mechanics and most importantly enjoyment of the game.

Lets tee off!

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Well iacas seems that you are not keen to start so I'll do it for you.

With regards to Dustin Johnson (DJ) having no similarities with the Mike Austin Swing (MAS) 

Please watch the below clip from an Auzzie bloke (Kyle Myers). I don't know Karl and I'm lucky that I cam across the video on Youtube. Karl does a very good job explaining some of the keys to the MAS method that you will find sound very similar to keys in DJ's swing.

DJ and MA do and share the following key actions in their swings:

1. Cupped left wrist at address

2. Forward press before take-away

3. Shut club face going back (pronated wrist)

4. Right leg straitens, but does not lock

5. Arms start the downswing

6. Right leg drives forward on downswing

7. Right shoulder (fulcrum - explained by Karl in the below video) behind right knee at impact

8. Release is an under action and not a rolling action

9. Right forearm pointing at the sky at 3 O'Clock.

 

To prove me wrong please post images of DJ doing anything other than what is described in my post.

Would you like me to post video's of DJ's swing and MA's so that you can compare them.

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10 minutes ago, NuroPane said:

Well iacas seems that you are not keen to start so I'll do it for you.

Welcome to the forum @NuroPane.

Simply typing a member's name will not automatically send out a notification to them. Start with an "@" followed by the name. When the name shows up in the list, select it. Quoting one's posts will also send out a notification.

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@NuroPane 

You have to type "@", then type the letters of the username. As you type, names will appear on a list.  Select the name from the list. Otherwise the user will not get notifications. 

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2 hours ago, NuroPane said:

Well iacas seems that you are not keen to start so I'll do it for you.

Umm, you challenged him to discuss things, so it is on you to start. Why would you think you could just announce you are ready for an argument have them come crawling to you? That's odd. 

Plus, I just read the thread, and it seems like @iacas and @mvmac exhaustively covered everything already, and they're awaiting some rebuttal to their points, so your invitation looks doubly odd. 

2 hours ago, NuroPane said:

DJ and MA do and share the following key actions in their swings:

1. Cupped left wrist at address

2. Forward press before take-away

3. Shut club face going back (pronated wrist)

4. Right leg straitens, but does not lock

5. Arms start the downswing

6. Right leg drives forward on downswing

7. Right shoulder (fulcrum - explained by Karl in the below video) behind right knee at impact

8. Release is an under action and not a rolling action

9. Right forearm pointing at the sky at 3 O'Clock.

As hinted above, I'd recommend you refute their points in their posts above, as they've already written detailed posts that could easily be copy/pasted to this argument above. They pointed out lots of differences, and there has been nothing but silence.

The fact that there are 9 similarities isn't particularly convincing to me.

 That video you posted is a guy they call "JH" and he moves on from one thing to another. His latest craze is something called "Channel Lock" and it's some a technique about opening up your stance and playing the ball on your back foot. Check out his site sometime. It's a scrambled mess with no consistency. So not exactly the authoritative source that I'd run around touting as your lead argument.

 

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1 hour ago, RandallT said:

Umm, you challenged him to discuss things, so it is on you to start. Why would you think you could just announce you are ready for an argument have them come crawling to you? That's odd.

Plus, I just read the thread, and it seems like @iacas and @mvmac exhaustively covered everything already, and they're awaiting some rebuttal to their points, so your invitation looks doubly odd. 

Yeah. I expected a follow-up question or a rebuttal or something. I didn't start the topic, @NuroPane.

1 hour ago, RandallT said:

As hinted above, I'd recommend you refute their points in their posts above, as they've already written detailed posts that could easily be copy/pasted to this argument above. They pointed out lots of differences, and there has been nothing but silence.

The fact that there are 9 similarities isn't particularly convincing to me.

Nor me. There are a lot of similarities between a ton of players. "Look at how both Ben Hogan and this guy have their left hand on top of their right hand! This guy is using the Ben Hogan swing!"

That's a bit of an extreme example, but the point remains… similarities are often somewhat of a coincidence, and not indicative of anything too real.

4 hours ago, NuroPane said:

With regards to Dustin Johnson (DJ) having no similarities with the Mike Austin Swing (MAS) 

When did I say this?

4 hours ago, NuroPane said:

1. Cupped left wrist at address

Anyone with a strong grip will tend to do this. Fred Couples springs to mind.

4 hours ago, NuroPane said:

2. Forward press before take-away

Irrelevant. Biomechanically this does nothing in the golf swing. You could just set up with the hands already forward.

4 hours ago, NuroPane said:

3. Shut club face going back (pronated wrist)

Strong grips do that. I also disagree that this is "shut." Matches his spine angle pretty closely. He just hasn't rolled the forearms yet. He does it a bit later in the

01.jpg

4 hours ago, NuroPane said:

4. Right leg straitens, but does not lock

I prefer the word "extends." "Straight" is a binary situation: something is straight or it's not.

Also, as I noted above, this is true of virtually EVERY PGA Tour player. Including Rory, who your predecessor put up as an example of NOT an MAS swing.

4 hours ago, NuroPane said:

5. Arms start the downswing

Really?

02.jpg

I don't see that. His left hip and left knee start moving forward while the arms are still going back. His arms are still well back here, while his hips and then, as a result of the hips, his torso… have begun rotating down, around, and forward.

4 hours ago, NuroPane said:

6. Right leg drives forward on downswing

Nobody's right leg drives forward on the downswing. Biomechanically, the right leg contributes very little to the downswing. The muscles in the right leg are pretty inactive. They don't do much.

Every good player shifts their weight and pressure forward. This happens through the core muscles.

So if you mean "gets his weight forward" or "gets his hips forward" then I agree… but this is not at all unique to Mike Austin's swing. Very little you listed is.

4 hours ago, NuroPane said:

7. Right shoulder (fulcrum - explained by Karl in the below video) behind right knee at impact

True of virtually every good player ever. Not at all unique to MAS.

03.jpg

4 hours ago, NuroPane said:

8. Release is an under action and not a rolling action

Really?

04.jpg

4 hours ago, NuroPane said:

9. Right forearm pointing at the sky at 3 O'Clock.

Refer to the picture above.

4 hours ago, NuroPane said:

To prove me wrong please post images of DJ doing anything other than what is described in my post.

I've done so.

And again, to re-iterate my post, these aren't specific at all. By your list, nearly every good player is a MAS player because they all do many of those things. Every player with a strong grip is, anyway… How about the other Johnson: Zach? He does many of those things. Is he also an MAS golfer? Strong grip, cupped wrist, shut face, extends trail knee, more of an "under" release than Dustin… etc. How about Rory?

Your predecessor said Dustin swayed back slightly and turned around his right leg as a post (or something like that), and I demonstrated a picture of him NOT doing that. So MAS advocates can't seem to agree.


So, @NuroPane, what things actually make someone an MAS golfer? They should be different enough and actually matter. Sorry to say, but a "strong grip" (and what it tends to lead to) can be a component of the MAS, but if it's going to influence virtually every other thing on your list, you may as well claim that the MAS is just "a strong grip."

Of the things on your list which I don't feel I refuted… many are the common results of a strong grip.

4 hours ago, NuroPane said:

1. Cupped left wrist at address - strong grip

2. Forward press before take-away - strong grip

3. Shut club face going back (pronated wrist) - strong grip

4. Right leg straitens, but does not lock - (not strong grip related, virtually every good player does this)

5. Arms start the downswing - I don't think DJ starts down with the arms.

6. Right leg drives forward on downswing - weight forward? Yes. Every PGA Tour player.

7. Right shoulder (fulcrum - explained by Karl in the below video) behind right knee at impact - virtually every PGA Tour player

8. Release is an under action and not a rolling action - Not really, and others do it more. Also, a result of a strong grip.

9. Right forearm pointing at the sky at 3 O'Clock. - Same note as #8.

So of the nine…

  • five are basically a result of a strong grip
  • three are things virtually every PGA Tour player does
  • one is something I disagree with completely

 

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27 minutes ago, iacas said:

02.jpg

I don't see that. His left hip and left knee start moving forward while the arms are still going back. His arms are still well back here, while his hips and then, as a result of the hips, his torso… have begun rotating down, around, and forward.

I second this. One of my favorite parts of DJ's swing is that transition where everything starts rotating but the arms stay up.

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