Hank Haney questions Bernhard Langer's Putting

[iacas]

6 hours ago, DeadMan said:

What are we missing? Why hasn't he been penalized?

Maybe they've said, well, what Drew said:

5 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

For one, what we're missing is what might be going on behind the scenes.  We have no idea if the USGA and/or Champions Tour is looking into it or if they already have.

I'd also imagine that the answer to your second question comes down to it being somewhat inconclusive.  I have no idea how something like this would work if they say it looks like you're anchoring and he just says "well, I'm not."  Do they have to somehow prove it?  Or do they, perhaps, just say "look, we've let it go on to this point, so the past is the past, but from here on in, it's on you to make it CLEAR that you're not anchoring.  If it appears to us as such, you're getting penalized."  And, assuming it's his putting stroke for all putts, I imagine the penalty would have to just be a DQ?

And…

5 hours ago, DeadMan said:

For what it's worth, I read that the USGA spoke with Langer about his putting after his round on Friday, and then he played poorly on the weekend. Maybe that had something to do with it? Pure speculation on my part, though.

Do you have a source for that?

[iacas]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

Do you have a source for that?

 

[mvmac]

Teaching Pro Bill Harmon (Butch's brother) on FB

 

[Shindig]

How can they not do anything about it?  Maybe I don't understand the rule.  Is that different, rules wise, if one were to spoon a chip shot?

[iacas]

2 hours ago, mvmac said:

Teaching Pro Bill Harmon (Butch's brother) on FB

 

Pretty ballsy to keep putting that way if that's true.

[DeadMan]

On 7/3/2017 at 4:47 PM, iacas said:

Do you have a source for that?

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golf-central-blog/chamblee-calls-anchor-ban-enforcement-appalling/

(Again, pure speculation that the USGA told him to stop putting the way he was, but they did talk to Langer about his stroke)

Quote

USGA discussed the matter with Langer before his Saturday round.

“They brought it to my attention, but they said you’re totally within the rules, there’s nothing wrong with what you’re doing,” Langer said. “It didn’t bother me.”

Edited July 5, 2017 by DeadMan

[krupa]

15 hours ago, Shindig said:

How can they not do anything about it?  Maybe I don't understand the rule.  Is that different, rules wise, if one were to spoon a chip shot?

The rule allows your hand to touch loose clothing and also includes some interpretation for intent.  So how tight is Langer's shirt? 

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/images/rules/anchoring/814RevFINAL.pdf

[Vinsk]

Nonsense. BL's thumb is not just touching his shirt, it's anchored. And if he is intentionally making a stroke at the ball, he knows his hand/fingers are in contact with his body and therefore there is intent. He's cheating and he damn well knows it.

[krupa]

41 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Nonsense. BL's thumb is not just touching his shirt, it's anchored. And if he is intentionally making a stroke at the ball, he knows his hand/fingers are in contact with his body and therefore there is intent. He's cheating and he damn well knows it.

No argument from me.  Perhaps the PGA/Champions Tour is just using the rule's wording to avoid confronting the top money winner on their Tour.  Of course, if he's gotten there by cheating then they're not doing themselves any favors.

Chamblee is not mincing words about this.

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/brandel-chamblee/intent-undermining-anchoring-rule

Quote

Anchoring is NOT deemed to have happened when and if a player holds the club, or the gripping hand, or a part of the forearm against the body, relieving the player from making a free swing by restricting the movement of the club as if it were physically attached to the player’s body and thereby providing extra support and stability for the stroke … if the player, regardless of having done all of the above, merely states that it was not their “intent” to have done so. That it was not their “intent” to have anchored.

Intent is the get-out-of-jail-free card for both the player and those who are meant to police the player.

 

[Golfingdad]

2 hours ago, krupa said:

No argument from me.  Perhaps the PGA/Champions Tour is just using the rule's wording to avoid confronting the top money winner on their Tour.  Of course, if he's gotten there by cheating then they're not doing themselves any favors.

Chamblee is not mincing words about this.

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/brandel-chamblee/intent-undermining-anchoring-rule

 

Interesting article, thanks for posting.  I don't have any qualms with what he's saying.  I'd just like to point out that when he calls it a "get out of jail free card,"  it kind of sounds like he's interpreting, or he's assuming the tour is interpreting, the word "intent" as being defined by simply what the player said after the fact.  But I think that actions speak louder than words in this case and you (the anchorers) don't get to say you didn't have intent while at the same time continuing to "accidentally" anchor.  It reminds me of my sometimes PITA 6 year old daughter who does something to annoy her little brother (with a smile on her face) and then after he starts crying says shes sorry, assuming that will exonerate her.  "It was an accident."  The first time I will believe you, but after multiple times, "sorry" does not negate the intent you had during the act.  You might be sorry now that you're in trouble, but you have every intention to do what you did a minute ago.

I am also quite impressed by the stats.  Obviously, it's circumstantial, but that's pretty incredible that two guys who struggled with their putting over the years enough to find it necessary to go to an anchored stroke found that when they were required to stop anchoring, not only did they not get worse, but they got better.  That doesn't really add up.  Now I think I'd like to go back and see what these two were saying when interviewed about the topic in the years between the announcement and the implementation of the ban.

[iacas]

I hope this keeps blowing up.

Also, this is the most interested anyone's been in the Champions Tour in years.

[Vinsk]

I understand that the language written on this particular rule doesnt apply to all rules, but it's seems preposterous that one can say, " I didn't mean to cheat" and then be excused. I mean I believe for the most part pros aren't getting penalties due to an intent to commit an infraction. 

[iacas]

I don't think the "intent" part is being used correctly here.

I think that holding a club "intentionally" means, in this rule, that it's not accidental, like if you follow through, pull the putter toward yourself as a reaction, stick yourself a little with the butt end of your club… that's not intentionally holding it against yourself (it's also after the stroke is made).

If you know it's there and you do nothing to prevent it from even touching you, it's intentional.

[ScouseJohnny]

If your forearm is clasped to your chest as you address the ball during the putt, I think we can safely say that's intentional. As someone in an earlier post mentioned, the wrinkle in his shirt that is there when he lines up the putt, and which is gone after he makes the stroke, tells the story.

Honestly, I'm very surprised at Langer, of whom I was a fan back in the day. I wouldn't have thought he'd have wanted this type of cloud hanging over his name at this point in his career.

On a separate note, which I hope isn't too OT: it shows what an utter balls-up the R&A and USGA made when introducing this rule. If they wanted this gone, they ought simply to have banned broomstick and belly putters outright.

[MRR]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

I don't think the "intent" part is being used correctly here...

If you know it's there and you do nothing to prevent it from even touching you, it's intentional.

Absolutely.  Saying "it was accidental" should be enough to give one the benefit of the doubt for the first two times.  After that, you've been on notice that you are doing it incorrectly.

Part of the issue is that enforcement has been ignored for so long that now some people think it's "unfair" to enforce it.

1 hour ago, ScouseJohnny said:

On a separate note, which I hope isn't too OT: it shows what an utter balls-up the R&A and USGA made when introducing this rule. If they wanted this gone, they ought simply to have banned broomstick and belly putters outright.

This is a horrible outcome of something that looks a lot like Decision by Committee.  There was probably a reason that sounded really good a the time to not ban them outright.  Now that legal strokes and enforcement has proven difficult, they should readdress the issue.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, ScouseJohnny said:

On a separate note, which I hope isn't too OT: it shows what an utter balls-up the R&A and USGA made when introducing this rule. If they wanted this gone, they ought simply to have banned broomstick and belly putters outright.

I disagree. They didn't want to limit the equipment. They wanted to limit the method of use.

[rehmwa]

Each long putter needs to be equipped with a pressure sensor you tape to your sternum - too firm a contact and it gives a jolt to the player and autodials the 'call in penalty' hotline.

I hope these guys take the news accusations and just do whatever it takes to remove even the ghost of an impression that it's even possibly intentional.  These are pros, not just weekend hackers.

[MrDC]

He may not be placing his left hand against his chest, but his arm is firmly in place, that's anchoring, they'll probably redefine the rule to stop this soon.

But there's a simple solution- just ban the broomstick, it's not a complaint club IMO and would never consider using one despite the fact that it's legal, there's a distinct advantage there and it's nice to know so many in the game have the integrity to not use one knowing it could help their putting game. Bernard is proof it works.

Make the maximum putter length something like 40", problem solved.

Bernard has been winning a ton of golf because of his putting, but I've never been a fan of the guy because of the anchoring, it's like a trick shot to me and I think his Champions legacy has been tarnished, it's a shame because we all know he's a good guy and a great ball striker.

 

Edited July 6, 2017 by MrDC