Provisional or Drop for a Water Hazard

[Hardspoon]

2 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

Sounds like provisionals can be used a little more liberally than I've been lead to believe, even when a hazard is involved.

Although @iacas answered above, FWIW, here are the four decisions that "set the boundaries" of when you can play a provisional (I was going to include these in my earlier post, but it was a pain from my phone):

 

27-2a/2: Provisional Ball Played Solely in Belief Original Ball Might Be in Water Hazard

Q. A player's tee shot might be in a water hazard, but clearly it is not lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds. The player announces that, since his ball might be in the hazard, he is going to play a provisional ball and he does so. Rule 27-2a seems to prohibit a provisional ball in the circumstances. What is the ruling?

A. The player did not play a provisional ball which, according to the Definition of "Provisional Ball," is a ball played under Rule 27-2 for a ball which may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds. The second ball from the tee was in play since it was not a provisional ball.

 

27-2a/2.2: Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball

Q. Is it true that, if a player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, the player is precluded from playing a provisional ball?

A. No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned - Rule 27-2c.

 

27-2a/2.5: Player Plays Provisional Ball in Belief Original Might Be Lost Outside Water Hazard Then Discovers There Is No Possibility of Its Being Lost Outside Water Hazard

Q. A player's tee shot is struck towards an area of trees, bushes and tall grass. Believing his ball might be lost outside a water hazard, the player announces his intention to play a provisional ball and plays a ball from the tee. When he arrives at the area, he finds that the area in question is wetlands that has been defined as a lateral water hazard and that it is known or virtually certain that his ball is in it. What is the ruling?

A. As the player played the second ball from the tee in the belief that his original ball might be lost outside a water hazard, that ball was a provisional ball. The subsequent discovery that the area in question is in fact a lateral water hazard is irrelevant. Therefore, the player must abandon the provisional ball and proceed under Rule 26-1 - see Rule 27-2c.

 

27-2a/3: Play of Provisional Ball in Absence of Reasonable Possibility Original Ball Is Lost or Out of Bounds

Q. In the absence of reasonable possibility that a ball is lost outside a water hazard or is out of bounds, may the player play a provisional ball?

A. No. If a player plays a ball under such circumstances, the ball is not a provisional ball but the ball in play - see Decision 27-2a/2.

 

[JonMA1]

I think we're all missing the most important point... even though it was against the rules, it didn't count, and it ended up costing me strokes... I holed a shot from 80 yards.

Just kidding. It's of no importance whatsoever. (sigh)

Seriously, this rules thread is huge for someone like me who doesn't play with others very often, and when I do, most have no idea.

Thanks for the explanations and discussion.

[Asheville]

Well, wouldn't you know! I'm refereeing a nice AJGA event near Chattanoga this week and this afternoon a call comes in for a ruling on #5. A garbled version of events has some of the elements of this discussion. I reply that I'll be there in a few minutes as this might turn out to be complicated.

Player's second is seen heading for the yellow staked water hazard. As the player nears the hazard, a spectator tells him that they definately saw his ball go into the hazard. The player goes to the dropping zone established for that hole, drops, and plays onto the green. Easy right?

When the player crosses the bridge he finds his original ball and does the smart thing . . . he asks for help. He didn't like my ruling that he must abandon the original ball and hole out with the ball from the drop zone. I said let's make sure I'm not wrong and look it up in the book. He looks over my shoulder and reads:

D26-1/3.5 Ball Dropped Under Water Hazard Rule with Knowledge or Virtual Certainty; Original Ball Then Found

Q. A player's ball is struck towards a water hazard. It is known or virtually certain that the player's ball is in the water hazard, and he drops a ball under Rule 26-1b. Before he plays the dropped ball, his original ball is found within the five-minute search period. What is the ruling?

A. As it was known or virtually certain that the ball was in the water hazard when the player put the substituted ball into play, that ball was correctly substituted and he may not play the original ball.

 

 

[iacas]

20 minutes ago, Asheville said:

Well, wouldn't you know! I'm refereeing a nice AJGA event near Chattanoga this week and this afternoon a call comes in for a ruling on #5.

Cool.

But could you answer my questions fro up above? And what score would you have given him on this hole (the OP) with which ball?

[Asheville]

Those rambling narratives wear me out and then "alternative facts" find their way into the story. I'm inclined toward DQ because the player without KVC should have played 27-1, but didn't and didn't correct his WP serious breach.

[JonMA1]

2 hours ago, Asheville said:

Those rambling narratives wear me out and then "alternative facts" find their way into the story.

Which rambling narrative are you referring to?

[iacas]

6 hours ago, Asheville said:

Those rambling narratives wear me out and then "alternative facts" find their way into the story. I'm inclined toward DQ because the player without KVC should have played 27-1, but didn't and didn't correct his WP serious breach.

?

I don't think it's a serious breach. It was on the far side of the hazard when the ball was significantly closer, and it happened to be in a location where he would have been allowed to drop anyway.

And I don't feel it was a "rambling narrative" at all. Not sure what that part's about. The facts seem pretty clear here on what he did and thought.

[MacDutch]

Is it okay to ask about a partly similar situation? If not I will start a new thread (or maybe it could be split).

I try to hit my ball over a large water hazard, but its a low ball and on the other side of the hazard and only in the hazard is high grass. So I don't know if the ball came through the grass or got stuck in it (and thereby stuck in the waterhazard). 

Could it be possible under the rules to drop a ball where it crossed the hazard first (assuming a water ball) under the condition it is only the ball in play when the first one did not cross the hazard? So a local rule to speed up play. You play the dropped ball and walk afterwards to the other side of the hazard. If the original ball crossed, thats the ball in play, if not you continue with the dropped one.

Or is the only way to speed up play, to hit a provisional taking stroke and distance?

[Hardspoon]

1 hour ago, MacDutch said:

Could it be possible under the rules to drop a ball where it crossed the hazard first (assuming a water ball) under the condition it is only the ball in play when the first one did not cross the hazard? So a local rule to speed up play.

No. A ball can only be dropped under the hazard rule when it is "known or virtually certain" to be in the hazard.

1 hour ago, MacDutch said:

Or is the only way to speed up play, to hit a provisional taking stroke and distance?

Correct.

@Fourputt did mention a local rule that allows you to play the provisional by choice if the original is found in the hazard, but I'm not sure it's legal:

Regardless, the provisional is still dropped using stroke-and-distance.

Sounds like the course could do better at marking or grading this hazard to speed up play.

[Fourputt]

On 6/8/2017 at 5:23 AM, Hardspoon said:

No. A ball can only be dropped under the hazard rule when it is "known or virtually certain" to be in the hazard.

Correct.

@Fourputt did mention a local rule that allows you to play the provisional by choice if the original is found in the hazard, but I'm not sure it's legal:

Regardless, the provisional is still dropped using stroke-and-distance.

Sounds like the course could do better at marking or grading this hazard to speed up play.

If the committee has activated the local rule, then it is certainly legal.  It's one of the specimen local rules in Appendix I of the Rules of Golf.  This is not a full time rule of golf - in a competition, the local rule must be instituted by the committee.  In casual play, do as you feel is right.  

Quote

5. Water Hazards - Playing Ball Provisionally Under Rule 26-1

If a water hazard (including a lateral water hazard) is of such size and shape and/or located in such a position that:

(i)

it would be impracticable to determine whether the ball is in the hazard or to do so would unduly delay play, and

(ii)

if the original ball is not found, it is known or virtually certain that it is in the water hazard,

the Committee may introduce a Local Rule permitting the play of a ball provisionally under Rule 26-1. The ball is played provisionally under any of the applicable options under Rule 26-1 or any applicable Local Rule. In such a case, if a ball is played provisionally and the original ball is in a water hazard, the player may play the original ball as it lies or continue with the ball played provisionally, but he may not proceed under Rule 26-1 with regard to the original ball.

In these circumstances, the following Local Rule is recommended:

"If there is doubt whether a ball is in or is lost in the water hazard (specify location), the player may play another ball provisionally under any of the applicable options in Rule 26-1.

If the original ball is found outside the water hazard, the player must continue play with it.

If the original ball is found in the water hazard, the player may either play the original ball as it lies or continue with the ball played provisionally under Rule 26-1.

If the original ball is not found or identified within the five-minute search period, the player must continue with the ball played provisionally.

 

[jms5180]

This thread has been very helpful. Thanks for asking this question OP and thanks @iacas and others for all the discussion/explanation