People suck (drivers v. cyclists)

[Strandly]

On 6/17/2017 at 9:53 PM, billchao said:

Center of the road is safer. It looks from the video that the cyclist didn't know there was someone behind him until the driver honked.

Speed limits are limits, not minimums, so you're not required to be at that speed. Just because the road was designed for automobiles doesn't justify that driver's action. He could have just passed once the cyclist moved over without incident. If that cyclist wasn't aware, the driver would have run him off the road, possibly causing serious injury or death.

No but they should be (and are in some places) because slow drivers are just as much of a hazard as speeders.

I am not a fan of bikes on roads either because usually the road wasn't made for it.  If this guy wants to risk dying then I'm all for it but at the very least he shouldn't be on a road without a shoulder.

[David in FL]

42 minutes ago, Strandly said:

No but they should be (and are in some places) because slow drivers are just as much of a hazard as speeders.

I am not a fan of bikes on roads either because usually the road wasn't made for it.  If this guy wants to risk dying then I'm all for it but at the very least he shouldn't be on a road without a shoulder.

People continue to miss the point...

...in every state I've ever ridden, and it's a bunch of them, cyclists are required by law to ride on the road and to obey the same traffic laws as motorists.

Interestingly, I knew a group of very strong cyclists who were all cited for speeding.  They were riding in a pace line (a pack of drafting cycles) and were nailed fo 38 mph in a 25 mph residential zone.  Rightfully so too.  Incredibly irresponsible and dangerous.

 

[jkelley9]

On 6/24/2017 at 6:21 PM, David in FL said:

People continue to miss the point...

...in every state I've ever ridden, and it's a bunch of them, cyclists are required by law to ride on the road and to obey the same traffic laws as motorists.

Interestingly, I knew a group of very strong cyclists who were all cited for speeding.  They were riding in a pace line (a pack of drafting cycles) and were nailed fo 38 mph in a 25 mph residential zone.  Rightfully so too.  Incredibly irresponsible and dangerous.

 

That's really interesting.

And just yesterday I was held up behind a cyclist on my narrow, weaving, blind corner back roads. What kind of idiot does it take to choose that as their path? Put your bike on/in your car, drive to somewhere safe, start cycling, obey traffic laws, finish, and drive home. It's easy. I wish cyclists were required to have identification plates including their life insurer so I could call the insurance company and let them know "hey, this guy is in a high risk category - basically asking to be killed!"

[Buckeyebowman]

On 6/19/2017 at 4:57 PM, David in FL said:

Where should cyclists ride?

Or should that particular mode of transportation simply be banned because you don't like it?

BTW, it's worth remembering, that cyclists are motorists too...

No, they are NOT motorists. There is no motor on their vehicle. And that's part of the problem. I experience every time I drive to Mill Creek. It's in a Metropark, and there are bicyclists everywhere. Most of them stay to the side, but you get the occasional "I'm better than you because I ride a bike" person dawdling along in the middle of the lane!

It's a narrow, winding, two lane road that is only 25MPH. Yet some of these folks, who are hardly Tour de France material, will poke along at 10 per! I've come upon couples riding side by side and chatting!

Long story short, if you can't achieve the speed limit, get the hell over!

[David in FL]

11 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

No, they are NOT motorists. There is no motor on their vehicle. And that's part of the problem. I experience every time I drive to Mill Creek. It's in a Metropark, and there are bicyclists everywhere. Most of them stay to the side, but you get the occasional "I'm better than you because I ride a bike" person dawdling along in the middle of the lane!

It's a narrow, winding, two lane road that is only 25MPH. Yet some of these folks, who are hardly Tour de France material, will poke along at 10 per! I've come upon couples riding side by side and chatting!

Long story short, if you can't achieve the speed limit, get the hell over!

Good grief.  I'll try this one more time.

1)  Cyclelists, are also motorists, IN THAT THEY ALSO DRIVE CARS.  They spend the same amount of time in a car that you do.

2)  The law REQUIRES THAT CYCLELISTS RIDE ON THE ROAD.

Are there any questions...?  

[saevel25]

On 6/24/2017 at 5:32 PM, Strandly said:

No but they should be (and are in some places) because slow drivers are just as much of a hazard as speeders.

That is true. Yet who is at fault, the bicycle who rides at 15 mph in a 25 mph zone, or the car that drives 40 mph in a 25 mph zone? Wouldn't the speed differential be much closer if the car drove at the speed limit? 

On 6/24/2017 at 6:21 PM, David in FL said:

People continue to miss the point...

...in every state I've ever ridden, and it's a bunch of them, cyclists are required by law to ride on the road and to obey the same traffic laws as motorists.

In Ohio, if a bicyclist rides their on the road they are considered a moving vehicle. They must obey all traffic laws as cars and motorcycles. 

In Ohio, it is up to the municipality to decide of bicycles are allowed to be ridden on the sidewalk. 

In Ohio, a bicyclist can not be given a ticket for holding up traffic because of their top speed. If a bicyclist can only max out at 15 mph they can not be ticketed for impeding traffic because of their designed max speed. 

On 6/27/2017 at 11:06 AM, jkelley9 said:

That's really interesting.

And just yesterday I was held up behind a cyclist on my narrow, weaving, blind corner back roads. 

Winding roads are probably much safer than riding a bike on a straight rural country road. A winding road requires the driver to slow down. This gives both the bicyclist and the motorist time to react. On a rural road, where a car will drive highway speeds, the chance of a fatality will drastically increase. 

59 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

No, they are NOT motorists.

Depends on the state and how they are defined. In Ohio a bicycle is considered a vehicle, which it is. 

1 hour ago, Buckeyebowman said:

 It's in a Metropark, and there are bicyclists everywhere. Most of them stay to the side, but you get the occasional "I'm better than you because I ride a bike" person dawdling along in the middle of the lane!

What do you expect! It's a Metropark!!! A park is a perfect place for people to ride their bicycles. Seriously, if they can't ride in a Metropark then where at? You are just upset because you don't have patience enough to drive a car behind them. Most Metroparks will have speed limits of 25 mph or less. Just suck it up and deal with it. I am sure you will just honk your horn and they will move over. 

1 hour ago, Buckeyebowman said:

It's a narrow, winding, two lane road that is only 25MPH. Yet some of these folks, who are hardly Tour de France material, will poke along at 10 per! I've come upon couples riding side by side and chatting!

Again, MetroPark! A PARK! As in a recreational location were people can leisurely walk around, drive, and ride bicycles. 

48 minutes ago, David in FL said:

2)  The law REQUIRES THAT CYCLELISTS RIDE ON THE ROAD.

Depends on the state, but in most cases they are allowed to ride on the roadways. In a lot of cities they are restricted from riding on the sidewalks.

[Yukari]

It doesn't matter that the cyclists have the rights to use the entire lane or not.  The common sense tells you to move to one side to avoid being hit by a car.

Like I said you can be right - dead right - but you will not live to see the day if you insist on asserting your rights on a highway.  There are just too many crazy drivers (and people who are too distracted, e.g., on a phone, texting, putting on make-up, etc.) on the road out there.  And yes, I have seen a car next to me where a woman was driving with her knee putting on eye mascara.

[iacas]

On 7/7/2017 at 10:05 PM, Buckeyebowman said:

No, they are NOT motorists. There is no motor on their vehicle.

We addressed this almost a month ago.

On 7/7/2017 at 10:22 PM, David in FL said:

1)  Cyclelists, are also motorists, IN THAT THEY ALSO DRIVE CARS.

@David in FL, you're as wrong now as you were when you said it the first time. In NYC a lot of bicyclists don't even own a car. My daughter isn't old enough to drive a car, yet she can ride her bicycle on the roads and is responsible for operating a vehicle and following traffic signs and laws, too.

Bicyclists are often considered to be operating a vehicle but they're not "motorists." Even if they own a car, they're not a motorist when they're on their bike, or else I'm a "motorist" when I'm a pedestrian walking along a sidewalk.

[David in FL]

42 minutes ago, iacas said:

We addressed this almost a month ago.

@David in FL, you're as wrong now as you were when you said it the first time. In NYC a lot of bicyclists don't even own a car. My daughter isn't old enough to drive a car, yet she can ride her bicycle on the roads and is responsible for operating a vehicle and following traffic signs and laws, too.

Bicyclists are often considered to be operating a vehicle but they're not "motorists." Even if they own a car, they're not a motorist when they're on their bike, or else I'm a "motorist" when I'm a pedestrian walking along a sidewalk.

99.98% of the adult cyclists in this country also have a drivers license and drive cars.  Meaning they understand both sides of the position.  

I really didn't think my simple, truthful statement was that hard to understand.

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, David in FL said:

I really didn't think my simple, truthful statement was that hard to understand.

It's not that it's hard to understand, it's that it's wrong. Cyclists aren't motorists when they're riding a bike, and some are never motorists.

Let's get back to discussing the actual topic now, please, eh?

[nevets88]

WTF!!!??? That's a pedestrian/bike only lane. It is purposely quartered away from cars, but this guy finds his way in.

 

[saevel25]

11 minutes ago, David in FL said:

99.98% of the adult cyclists in this country also have a drivers license and drive cars.  Meaning they understand both sides of the position.  

I really didn't think my simple, truthful statement was that hard to understand.

Legal definition and actual definition can be two seperate things. You are not required to be a motorists to ride a bicycle. Look at all the people younger than 16 who do so. Bicyclist are not motorists, but motorists can be bicyclist.

A lot of drivers don't even know some simple driving laws. Most bicyclist probably don't know they have to obey the same laws of the road as motorists. I've seen people ride bicycles through red lights, not use hand signals for turning, ect.. 

I don't think, just because they also drive a car that it gives them some sort of special insight on what is expected. This is confirmed thought years of seeing bicyclist ride in an urban setting when I was a traffic engineer for Dayton. 

[David in FL]

13 minutes ago, iacas said:

It's not that it's hard to understand, it's that it's wrong. Cyclists aren't motorists when they're riding a bike, and some are never motorists.

Let's get back to discussing the actual topic now, please, eh?

I NEVER said that cycleists were motorists when they were cycling.  My point, and it's certainly on topic, is that the vast majority of adult, serious/fitness cycleists, are also drivers who also have to interact with other cycleists when they themselves are behind the wheel of a car. The vast majority of drivers on the other hand, have virtually no understanding of what's involved with serious cycling.  Yet they blame and hate cycleists just the same.

7 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Legal definition and actual definition can be two seperate things. You are not required to be a motorists to ride a bicycle. Look at all the people younger than 16 who do so. Bicyclist are not motorists, but motorists can be bicyclist.

A lot of drivers don't even know some simple driving laws. Most bicyclist probably don't know they have to obey the same laws of the road as motorists. I've seen people ride bicycles through red lights, not use hand signals for turning, ect.. 

I don't think, just because they also drive a car that it gives them some sort of special insight on what is expected. This is confirmed thought years of seeing bicyclist ride in an urban setting when I was a traffic engineer for Dayton. 

Good grief.   I give up.  We're not talking about the 13 year old on her Barbie Schwinn....

[saevel25]

14 minutes ago, David in FL said:

I NEVER said that cycleists were motorists when they were cycling.  My point, and it's certainly on topic, is that the vast majority of adult, serious/fitness cycleists, are also drivers who also have to interact with other cycleists when they themselves are behind the wheel of a car. The vast majority of drivers on the other hand, have virtually no understanding of what's involved with serious cycling.  Yet they blame and hate cycleists just the same.

So now your redefining the definition. Now we are limited to adults who happen to be serious fitness cyclists. Might was well cut out a good portion of all cyclists then. 

 

[Jeremie Boop]

17 minutes ago, David in FL said:

I NEVER said that cycleists were motorists when they were cycling.  My point, and it's certainly on topic, is that the vast majority of adult, serious/fitness cycleists, are also drivers who also have to interact with other cycleists when they themselves are behind the wheel of a car. The vast majority of drivers on the other hand, have virtually no understanding of what's involved with serious cycling.  Yet they blame and hate cycleists just the same.

Bicyclists are more aware for the same reason motorcyclists are more aware.

[iacas]

21 minutes ago, David in FL said:

I NEVER said that cycleists were motorists when they were cycling.

Never said you did. You did say:

On 6/19/2017 at 4:57 PM, David in FL said:

BTW, it's worth remembering, that cyclists are motorists too...

They aren't, and @Shooting29 first called you out on that. You're being stubborn at this point. I feel like you were trying to say they were "operating a vehicle" and so that they're entitled to be on the roadways too (unlike pedestrians), but now you're doggedly clinging to this "motorists" thing.

You said either an incorrect or at the very least a poorly worded thing, and instead of clarifying by saying "I just meant the majority of cyclists are also aware of the other side of the equation, while the vast majority of car-drivers are not also cyclists, and this creates an imbalance in the understanding each group has for the other," you're just trying to wiggle out of it.

I get that you meant the thing I quasi-quoted there. But it's not what you said, nor is it how anyone took it.

Because cyclists are NOT motorists when they're cyclists.

21 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Good grief.   I give up.  We're not talking about the 13 year old on her Barbie Schwinn....

Sure we are. We're talking about all cyclists.

[chilepepper]

I need to get a dash cam. In San Diego there are a fair amount of bike lanes. What I see with regularity is, for the most part, the spandex commandos who ride two abreast in the bike lane with one in the car lane or three abreast with one in bike lane and two in the car lane. They also regularly blow through stop signs and stop lights. The children in my town actually ride bikes in a safer law abiding manner. 

Are there bad drivers? Of course just as there are bad cyclists. The problem is a bad motorist has airbags, seat belts, crumple zones and a lot of steel around them. A bad cyclist doesn't have squat except easy to cut spandex for the paramedics and hopefully an organ donor card.

Edited July 11, 2017 by chilepepper

[nevets88]

21 minutes ago, chilepepper said:

I need to get a dash cam. In San Diego there are a fair amount of bike lanes. What I see with regularity is, for the most part, the spandex commandos who ride two abreast in the bike lane with one in the car lane or three abreast with one in bike lane and two in the car lane. They also regularly blow through stop signs and stop lights. The children in my town actually ride bikes in a safer law abiding manner. 

Are there bad drivers? Of course just as there are bad cyclists. The problem is a bad motorist has airbags, seat belts, crumple zones and a lot of steel around them. A bad cyclist doesn't have squat except easy to cut spandex for the paramedics and hopefully an organ donor card.