The Single Most Important Angle(s) in Golf

[Alx]

16 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I doubt the strength of the grip matters that much to what the OP is stating. Maybe a tiny bit, but you don't see PGA Tour players with weak exceedingly bowing their hands. Heck Dustin Johnson has a very strong grip and maintains that bowed left wrist. I don't see a correlation between strength of grip and the amount of bowed wrists at impact. 

On my phone so typing is a bit of a pain but...

I think it does. Most of the ott, flipping etc are imo just ways of getting to impact with something semi functional. 

DJ has a lot of forward press which opens the face so he has to bow to close the face. Ofcourse it looks a bit different cause he is so tilted.

Think about it in reverse. What does that bow do? It closes the face so without it the face would be wide open.

[David in FL]

25 minutes ago, Yukari said:

While I generally agree you should not flip, I voted no because one of my playing buddy flips his wrist on chip shots and he is deadly.  He is the only one that I know of who flips his write on chip shots.

I guess he started out that way and got use to his wrist action. 

I could be wrong, and @iacas can correct me if I am, but I don't think he's saying that it's impossible to play well with a flippy pitch.  But rather, if someone is seeking, and getting lessons from a quality instructor who is actively working to correct a flip, but is unable to do so, then that person arguably lacks the athleticism and body control necessary to play at anything approaching a high level...

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Alx said:

This wrist angle is dependant on how weak or strong your upper hand is.

I don't agree with that. I can maintain a good impact alignment and move my upper hand (my left hand) around the grip from strong to weak and it doesn't affect the alignment of my right hand/wrist.

If the right hand (bottom hand, trail hand) gets too strong, yes, the wrist angle can be lost while still having a good/proper amount of shaft lean.

But… you missed the point. The point is not whether you can play good golf while not having that angle. The point is that you can't be a great golfer if you are unable to control that angle on a short chip shot when asked to do so.

1 hour ago, Alx said:

I don't understand why force people into these weak grips and then compensate by bowing the lead wrist to square the face which most people really can't do hence the various slices you see. It's easier to just grip it stronger with the upper hand to begin with.

I don't know what that's got to do with anything. I sure as hell don't put people into weak grips, and most people don't bow the lead wrist to square the face - they swing left and flip/roll their hands/forearms.

1 hour ago, Yukari said:

While I generally agree you should not flip, I voted no because one of my playing buddy flips his wrist on chip shots and he is deadly.  He is the only one that I know of who flips his write on chip shots.

I guess he started out that way and got use to his wrist action. 

See the above, or the post @David in FL made:

31 minutes ago, David in FL said:

I could be wrong, and @iacas can correct me if I am, but I don't think he's saying that it's impossible to play well with a flippy pitch.  But rather, if someone is seeking, and getting lessons from a quality instructor who is actively working to correct a flip, but is unable to do so, then that person arguably lacks the athleticism and body control necessary to play at anything approaching a high level...

Yeah. If when asked to do so you can't make yourself hit a 10-foot chip while having control of your trail wrist to NOT flip the clubhead at the ball, you lack the proprioception, body awareness, etc. to play golf at a reasonably high level.

52 minutes ago, Alx said:

I think it does. Most of the ott, flipping etc are imo just ways of getting to impact with something semi functional.

Yes, a lot of people swing left to try to move low point forward. But for this topic it's kinda beside the point. As is the DJ stuff…

Spoiler

52 minutes ago, Alx said:

DJ has a lot of forward press which opens the face so he has to bow to close the face. Ofcourse it looks a bit different cause he is so tilted.

A forward press doesn't have to open the face. And I disagree DJ opens the face at address… his bowed wrist is why he's had to finish low and left. It's not a compensation for something else.

Not really the topic here, though.

So yeah… it's more about whether they're capable of doing it, not whether you NEED to have a certain angle in your actual swing.

[Vinsk]

I can't help but wonder how many golfers don't know they're not capable of it? Feel ain't real so seems like the very first thing to analyze when instructing someone. Is it?

[iacas]

8 hours ago, Vinsk said:

I can't help but wonder how many golfers don't know they're not capable of it? Feel ain't real so seems like the very first thing to analyze when instructing someone. Is it?

Well… not everyone "wants" or "needs" to be a single digit golfer.

[Vinsk]

32 minutes ago, iacas said:

Well… not everyone "wants" or "needs" to be a single digit golfer.

Yes that's true. I meant golfers who do want to be single digit yet are always claiming their problem to be of a less important one. Not all instructors have your expertise and I wonder how many struggling out there have never been told or discovered on their own this important aspect.

[Shindig]

I know enough to not worry about this in my full swing until it becomes a priority piece.  I don't think it will stop me from getting under 13 handicap, and if it does become a priority piece, I'm sure Stephan will tell me when that happens.

That having been said, I know I do have a tendency to cast the club, so there's a part of me that worries this will pop up in the future.  Should I work on this when I practice chipping?

(On a related note, p.44 LSW says there should be chipping notes in the extras but I can't find it in the online section)

[Jack Watson]

If you watch here with Rogers,  it looks quite throwy.  Using the bounce not delofting and exposing the leading edge.

There was a two and a half hour video available of a Rogers short game clinic and except for twenty minutes or so it was basically him telling stories.  No damn Elkingclown.  In the video he laid out his method for a pitch and also a very simple chip.  I watched the key part many times before the video got taken down.  Rogers used the analogy of tossing a ball.  Rogers does have a specific method and I like it.

 

Edited July 16, 2017 by Jack Watson

[Jack Watson]

If you look here post impact.  The angle is still there.  Even though he's hinging freely.

[Vinsk]

7 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

If you look here post impact.  The angle is still there.  Even though he's hinging freely.

Ok, but Iacas isn't saying "if you chip like this you'll never achieve great golf." He's saying if one cannot even chip without flipping then great golf may be unobtainable. These pros can flip a chip anytime they want...but can they achieve this proper angle being discussed? Of course they can and do.

[Jack Watson]

@Vinsk

The club has to work through the ball correctly if one wants to be good.  I voted yes.  I agree if you can't have some control over the angle of the shaft on a simple short shot when asked then golf is going to be hard for you.  There's so many things one can do on a wedge shot.  If you can't even do high mid low then I think you will not ever be single digit.

[allenc]

At first I clicked "agree" because I didn't fully understand the question but revoted for "disagree."  I believe we're talking about someone who you try for an hour to get to do this and are unsuccessful.  But even if they can't hit it 10 feet without flipping today, I don't believe that means they will never be able to do it.  Not unless they actually have some kind of condition or are obviously very clumsy or whatever.

I think sometime you just have a mental block, and that you can eventually get over it.  The student might have some feeling (call it 'A') he internally believes he needs to do to get the club to the ball.  When you say "do something this way" he thinks you can't possibly mean "don't do A", that's inconceivable.  So he tries to do it every way he can think of while still doing A.  You're standing there wondering why he's contorting himself thus, but if you yourself tried to do the drill while still doing A then you would look like that as well.

Of course 'A' is the flip move.  It may take him a lot of time and exploration, and more than just words from his instructor to identify that.  He'll have to realize he needs an entirely different approach to moving the club at the ball.  But I think he can get there.

[iacas]

6 hours ago, Shindig said:

That having been said, I know I do have a tendency to cast the club, so there's a part of me that worries this will pop up in the future.  Should I work on this when I practice chipping?

You're missing the point.

If, when asked to hit a ball and finish with that angle still intact on a ten-foot chip, you can do it, then you aren't the guy I'm talking about.

If, when asked to hit a ball and finish with that angle still intact on a ten-foot chip, you can't do it, then you won't be a great golfer.

In other words, I don't care where the hole is or if there IS even a hole anywhere - if you can hit a short chip style motion shot and maintain that angle into the follow-through when asked, you're not the person I'm talking about. You're fine. You have at least a minimal level of proprioception, skill, control, etc.

6 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

If you watch here with Rogers,  it looks quite throwy.  Using the bounce not delofting and exposing the leading edge.

Completely missing the point @Jack Watson. This point is not about how to hit a pitch shot, or even a chip shot.

4 hours ago, allenc said:

But even if they can't hit it 10 feet without flipping today, I don't believe that means they will never be able to do it.

I don't agree. I don't think that, without any real pressure, no hole, no score… just a ball and the instruction to do this, if they can't just make themselves do this simple task, that they're not going to be a great golfer.

It's such a simple thing, that you should just be able to "do" it. If you can't, you lack a TON of basic skill, proprioception, something…

4 hours ago, allenc said:

I think sometime you just have a mental block, and that you can eventually get over it.

I think those would be a very, very, very, very small minority. There's no pressure. No target. It's a basic test of simple control, whatever.

This isn't shouting out "low fade" or "high draw" in the middle of someone's backswing. It's not addressing the ball with the face 45° closed and finding a way to use your hands to hit the ball pretty straight. This is a very, very simple test of basic control. Calling it a test of "athleticism" is a stretch.

4 hours ago, allenc said:

Of course 'A' is the flip move.  It may take him a lot of time and exploration, and more than just words from his instructor to identify that.  He'll have to realize he needs an entirely different approach to moving the club at the ball.  But I think he can get there.

And I'm saying if he struggles to get something this simple, this easy, this basic… that he'll never be a great golfer.

[Kalnoky]

I voted agree.

For the second consecutive weekend I played with single-digit 'cappers and none of them flip at the ball.

Edited July 16, 2017 by Kalnoky

[Shindig]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

You're missing the point.

If, when asked to hit a ball and finish with that angle still intact on a ten-foot chip, you can do it, then you aren't the guy I'm talking about.

If, when asked to hit a ball and finish with that angle still intact on a ten-foot chip, you can't do it, then you won't be a great golfer.

In other words, I don't care where the hole is or if there IS even a hole anywhere - if you can hit a short chip style motion shot and maintain that angle into the follow-through when asked, you're not the person I'm talking about. You're fine. You have at least a minimal level of proprioception, skill, control, etc.

 

I'm actually kind of glad I missed the point there.  One less thing for me to worry about.  Thanks for clarifying. 

[GolfLug]

@iacas I voted agree. To me hands flipping is kinda half swing arc golf. It looses all leverage from a moving arms that form part of the swing arc radius..sorta.. no? Clubhead speed, turn rates, sequencing all go to hell. 

I am sure I suffer from it too to some extent but a lot less than a couple of years ago. I have the scores improvement to show for it.

I guess if those who struggle with this absolutely have to flip then just flip from somewhere around the upper chest instead of the wrists..  

 

[Buckeyebowman]

On 7/15/2017 at 10:49 AM, nevets88 said:

Maybe try asking student to drive the ball to a point 10 yards ahead but 5 feet underground? 

 

This gave me a chuckle. I learned early on, from my "country club pro" Uncle, that if you want the ball to go up, you hit down. At least with every club but a Driver. On chip shots I like to get the ball on the green and rolling ASAP.

But, there are exceptions to every rule. My buddy's Son, who is now 40, flips on every chip and pitch. But he has phenomenal feel and timing and is excellent at both! He prefers to put some air under the ball and fly it most of the way to the hole.

I can't do what he does, and he can't do what I can.

[Mr. Desmond]

@iacas Do they flip when you pull the ball and just ask them to chip without it? Wondering if it is ball anxiety.