Jump to content
IGNORED

Old grip video De La Torre


Note: This thread is 1458 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

There's also one of these vids on alignment but I hate what De La Torre says on that.  He says look at the target in the distance don't use an intermediate target.  

Hell id lose 3-5 strokes at least a round with that.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Moderator
13 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

There's some good stuff in here and also some ideas that I question.  Nonetheless an interesting watch...

 

I'm going to be honest here and say there's no way I'm going to watch a 43 minute video, even with that ringing endorsement ;-)

Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
1 hour ago, billchao said:

I'm going to be honest here and say there's no way I'm going to watch a 43 minute video, even with that ringing endorsement ;-)

Ditto. Particularly when it's sold as being about the grip?

How about you highlight a few parts, @Jack Watson.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator

43 minutes on the grip but when it comes to the actual swing just "swing the club head"? :-P

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Watched the first 12 minutes and will try to get to some more tomorrow. Basically he just talks about the palms facing each other regardless of whether it's strong, weak, neutral and how "bad" grips can work for certain players.

 

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

0-1 comfort means nothing at first

315-415 grip test (like it)

815-1440 changing a persons grip (like it)

17-19 strong grip hook fade misconception (ballflight error imo)

19-20 ten finger (good example of a bad interlock)

2030 -2110 thumb position

2120-2230 long left thumb

2240-2430 how to put hands on (I don't do this his way)

2520 grip pre address (again disagree)

41 check it every time (like this)

2730 blade/body (like it)

3035 - 3800 grip pressure (like overall)

2630 never adjust at the ball (like it)

Grip is a key thing.  I like his thoughts on changing a person very much and also his thoughts on grip pressure.  

 

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Moderator
8 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

0-1 comfort means nothing at first

315-415 grip test (like it)

815-1440 changing a persons grip (like it)

17-19 strong grip hook fade misconception (ballflight error imo)

19-20 ten finger (good example of a bad interlock)

2030 -2110 thumb position

2120-2230 long left thumb

2240-2430 how to put hands on (I don't do this his way)

2520 grip pre address (again disagree)

41 check it every time (like this)

2730 blade/body (like it)

3035 - 3800 grip pressure (like overall)

2630 never adjust at the ball (like it)

Grip is a key thing.  I like his thoughts on changing a person very much and also his thoughts on grip pressure.  

 

I was hoping for a bit more synopsis rather than a syllabus. None of the above tells me what his views and philosophy were. All I got is you like and dislike parts of the video, which you already stated in the OP.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

(edited)
1 hour ago, billchao said:

s hoping for a bit more synopsis rather than a syllabus. None of the above tells me what his views and philosophy were. All I got is you like and dislike parts of the video, which you already stated in the OP

The bit from 815 to 1440 or so is a part that provides some insight into his teaching.  He talks about changing someone's grip and his philosophy is if they have good straight flight with grip flaws he says leave it alone and gives reasons.

The video is one of those things.  It either captures some interest or not.

At one point he mentions in there his preferred alignment of the grip is not like Byron Nelson and many others said.  His preference is vees at the center not towards right shoulder.

Again this is something older in golf.  I enjoy watching stuff like this ..

A couple years ago I ran into an internet golf pro at his home course playing alone one evening and my partner and I played a few holes with him.

Hed watch me swing and then look at the ball and go "well,  straight"  It was clear he thought my move was kind of ugly.

I got to chatting about the swing and his ideas towards me were all forearm rotation.  Off topic but it was funny because I hit it well with him and I am sure he wasn't gonna offer anything besides well,  straight if I had not struck up convo.

 

Edited by Jack Watson
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

(edited)

From 7-930 in this video is something you are not likely to see on many lesson tees.

130-200 is a great quote from a unique professional.  

 

Edited by Jack Watson
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Administrator
7 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

From 7-930 in this video is something you are not likely to see on many lesson tees.

Because it's stupid.

Look at your swing. Look at the swing of the woman in the video you posted before. Same big glaring issues we see from everyone else.

Cool. A guy can swing a club when he's not actually responsible for any of the swinging!

I analyzed my foot fall (heel strikes, mid-foot, etc.) and improved my running. I analyzed the how and running is a damn bit simpler than a golf swing.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
8 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

From 7-930 in this video is something you are not likely to see on many lesson tees.

"How did you do that?" Umm you were swinging my club around for me...

"See how your old way has all this tension?" Yea, you're adding extra resistance because you're holding onto my club...

This video just reminded me of a golf class I took in school once. The teacher taught exactly like this. He would grab your club and move it and tell you "make it move like this." It was the most vertical, wristy, floppy swing ever. He said the arc should travel straight up and down so the path would be along the target line so you can hit the ball straight.

Thanks for the laughs @Jack Watson.

55 minutes ago, iacas said:

I analyzed my foot fall (heel strikes, mid-foot, etc.) and improved my running. I analyzed the how and running is a damn bit simpler than a golf swing.

And you can say that about almost anything. You can do it, but if you want to do it better, you're going to have to work on things to improve. That's why there are coaches and all high level athletes use them. You can't just run faster by wanting to run faster.

I feel like this whole swing the clubhead thing is just oversimplifying the swing while taking advantage of golfers' desires for a quick and easy fix. It sounds good but you're not really getting anything of substance in the end. Sugar pill.

Imagine if they taught other sports like this. Want to get better at bowling? Just roll the ball. Can't hit a curve? Just put the bat on the ball. Billiards is easy, just hit the cue ball where you need it to go.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I know a bit of the backstory on Manuel de la Torre (MdT). Local pro Ed LeBeau who uses this teaching method at Heartland Golf School in Waterloo, IL.

Here is a more concise video overview of the MdT method:

Backstory: MdT was a younger associate of Ernest Jones, a top English golfer who lost a leg from combat wounds in World War I. The loss cost Jones his competitive career, but he regained his ability to play. Jones then became a golf instructor after the war and developed the "swing the clubhead" philosophy. Basic tenets: The clubhead is responsible for hitting the ball; the golfer is responsible for swinging the clubhead effectively.

MdT adopted the Jones method, and gave lessons for decades as head pro at Milwaukee Country Club. MdT died in 2016.

As for Ed LeBeau, he's shown here in a local TV feature:

I didn't take the Heartland course, but through seeing presentations by Ed I was able to garner the basics of the technique. I tried it, but it just didn't quite work for me. BUT, I know several people from the area that use his technique quite effectively. I suspect it has something to do with individual learning and information-processing style.

Traditional pros in the area, although they use more mainstream methods, like the philosophy of the MdT method: As one pro said, "Sooner or later you need to get up there and hit the ball." It would tend to avoid paralysis by analysis.

I guess I could say I adopted some of the attitudes, but not the mechanics.

-------------------

Note: We have discussed this before. TST has more than a dozen threads which deal with the MdT method. For example, MdT's book is discussed in  The Reading Room.

Edited by WUTiger
Properly load top video.
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

23 minutes ago, WUTiger said:

Backstory: MdT was an younger associate of Ernest Jones, a top English golfer who lost a leg from combat wounds in World War I. The loss cost Jones his competitive c

Actually MDT was taught by his father,  his father was the one who learned from Jones.  MDT modified the EJ concept by adding his arm concept.

2 hours ago, iacas said:

Look at your swing. Look at the swing of the woman in the video you posted before. Same big glaring issues we see from everyone else.

Ok,  but I am able to break 80 on a good day.  You can attack me if you wish but I have hit a lot of greens with my swing.  

What makes golf difficult is the weight and momentum in the clubhead and how it acts on us imo.  The club as it is moved at speed has a lot of force.

I find it easier to do less than more.  It's like my old pro.  He was very into the loading of the shaft and he had a pretty particular set of things he was looking for with that.  He was all about taking matters into his own hands. 

Simply swinging is about doing less imo.  Less moves more about as MDT says leaving the club alone as much as one can as it swings.  Obviously it's not an answer for everyone-nothing in golf is.

1 hour ago, billchao said:

This video just reminded me of a golf class I took in school once. The teacher taught exactly like this. He would grab your club and move it and tell you "make it move like this." It was the most vertical, wristy, floppy swing ever. He said the arc should travel straight up and down so the path would be along the target line so you can hit the ball straight.

MDT explains it's not up and down.  Also he's in the hall of fame.  This is older stuff that most people in today's world will not be able to understand.  In the modern world data/analysis is king.   People are unable to quiet their minds.

I don't have a problem with that,  but it's ignorant to refer to MDT as sugar pills.

 

  • Thanks 1
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Actually MDT was taught by his father,  his father was the one who learned from Jones.  MDT modified the EJ concept by adding his arm concept.

Thanks for the clarification. Duly noted!

Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
21 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

MDT explains it's not up and down.

You watched him swing that guy's club around, right? He has the shaft in his hands while standing on the toe line, the guy can't swing the club inwards because MDT is holding it. The entire arc MDT is demonstrating is basically straight down the target line (or as close as you can realistically get) with a lot of wrist break/flip.

24 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Also he's in the hall of fame.

What's that mean? You're talking about the World Golf Teachers Hall of Fame? It was created by Golf Magazine. Butch Harmon is in it. I'm sure Leadbetter will be one day, too.

42 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

This is older stuff that most people in today's world will not be able to understand

That's not ridiculously condescending at all.

43 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

In the modern world data/analysis is king.

Because the modern world has the tools. You're delusional if you think pros and teachers of yesteryear would have forgone highspeed video, radar, and 3D motion technology had they been available. They used the tools they had available to them at the time with the understanding of the golf swing they were able to achieve with those tools. Some of these "facts" that they have taught have been proven to be incorrect because of modern technology.

There's nothing wrong with being interested in the old stuff. A lot of what's taught today isn't even new; it's stuff people have been teaching for decades. But to dismiss modern instruction as inferior to the old stuff is ludicrous. With better understanding due to modern technology, some of the old information becomes obsolete and it would be foolish to continue following those principles.

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

Ok,  but I am able to break 80 on a good day.  You can attack me if you wish but I have hit a lot of greens with my swing.

Please don't take this the wrong way because you're better than me, but that's not good golf, man. I'm not interested in a teaching method to become a mediocre golfer. I want to break 80 every day. If you're satisfied with the state of your game and you don't want to change your swing, that's fine. But don't go around preaching your philosophy as superior to others when it hasn't even produced the best golfer you can possibly be.

Nobody has attacked you. @iacas has simply stated the part of your swing that's holding you back. Your refusal to change that and your philosophy about the swing in general is keeping you from hitting more greens and being an even better golfer than you are.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I think what makes my silly opinions different from yours @billchao is that I don't believe that certain mechanics equal certain skill.   

In the grip video mdt expresses his view that for some people changing their grip will ruin their game.  They have learned compensations in place that are pretty much set in stone.

Its like my swing.  

I haven't been able to play much this year,  but when I go out I have a potential to get back into the seventies.  If I set out to make changes I might as well resolve that I am going to need a LOT of practice ingraining the changes and playing will not be fun because I will miss both ways often until the changes are made permanent over time.  Scores will be bad.  Minimum one year commitment with a LOT of practice and results are not guaranteed.  I know this because of the amount of work it took me to be able to break 80.  It's exactly like the grip video.  I am just like that grip guy who said he was not going to practice.  Some things are better left alone.  

56 minutes ago, billchao said:

cause the modern world has the tools. You're delusional if you think pros and teachers of yesteryear would have forgone highspeed video, radar, and 3D motion technology had they been available. They used the tools they had available to them at the time with the understanding of the golf swing they were able to achieve with those tools

They had feel and ballflight primarily.  They produced the swings primarily on those two things and those older era golfers were pretty good from Bobby Jones to Johnny Miller.

Imo understanding the swing and being able to produce it are two separate issues.

Link to post
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

 In the grip video mdt expresses his view that for some people changing their grip will ruin their game.  

Maybe for a very small number of people. A grip change isn't all that challenging. 

17 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Scores will be bad.  Minimum one year commitment with a LOT of practice and results are not guaranteed.

I disagree here. A golfer can work on their swing and also go out and score well. They need to differentiate between the two. They need to find maybe one or two swing thoughts that let them get the ball around the course. Maybe they need to accept that they might have to live with "not a perfect swing" that they have seen on the range from practice. #I_Need_To_Take_My_Own_Advice

Not everything requires a long time to ingrain into their swing. There are some simple changes golfers can do that help them out a lot. Yea, not everything requires a minimum of one year of dedicated practice. 

1 hour ago, billchao said:

Please don't take this the wrong way because you're better than me, but that's not good golf, man. I'm not interested in a teaching method to become a mediocre golfer. I want to break 80 every day. 

Keep at it and you will get there!

1 hour ago, billchao said:

But don't go around preaching your philosophy as superior to others when it hasn't even produced the best golfer you can possibly be.

Nobody has attacked you. @iacas has simply stated the part of your swing that's holding you back. Your refusal to change that and your philosophy about the swing in general is keeping you from hitting more greens and being an even better golfer than you are.

+1 for this 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
4 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

What makes golf difficult is the weight and momentum in the clubhead and how it acts on us imo.  The club as it is moved at speed has a lot of force.

The thing is, the clubhead does NOT act on us.  It is inert, the only forces it can exert are as a reaction to what we the player cause it to do.  We exert force on the club, the club moves in response to those forces.  The only reason the clubhead has inertial forces or momentum is because we CAUSED it to move in a certain direction.  If you want to simplify, to "do less", the key is to make the club move in the right path and plane from the start, so you don't have to fight the momentum you've created to get the clubhead to the ball correctly

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Note: This thread is 1458 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • Support TST Affiliates

    TourStriker PlaneMate
    Golfer's Journal
    Whoop
    SuperSpeed
    FlightScope Mevo
    Use the code "iacas" for 10% off Mevo and the code "iacasjun21" for 10% off SuperSpeed.
  • Posts

    • Day 63, July 27, 2021: Three-quarter swing work again today, hey I may lose a little bit of distance, but I know where the ball is going. Rinse, Repeat, keep working on it kind of deal. I’m having small successes with the 3/4 swing so something must be working.
    • Day 153.  Before grocery shopping, I stopped at a putting green and worked for half an hour on 3' and 30' putts.  The end of the 3' practice included taking 17 shots to finish all 12 for my clock drill (not great, but not as bad as a month ago) and the 30' finished with my final six putts from 30' (due to this green, they weren't significantly different on the clockface, so I'm still getting a similar read, but I know better than to assume it.  And of course, I had to hit them the right speed) with a total of 11 strokes (five 2-putts and I also sank one). After lunch and before gym, I did the quarantine days 9 (again, with feedback from yesterday) + 10 (which took a while to get right... I'm not even sure I got it right, video to show up later today). Addendum:  I haven't figured out my trigger for the day 10 practice plan.  That's going to take me a bit more thought
    • MD: 89 (Black/Orange combo tees): 89. Up and down sandy on 17th was nice. One of my better sand shots of the week.  SV: 98 (Black tees).. Tough day. Bit too much of a course for me from black tees. Drive on 18 uphill was a bright spot that stood out though.  SV: 89 (Orange tees).. phew.. much better. 2nd shot on 16 uphill from 198 out over bunker with a borrowed 3 iron (thanks @DeadMan.. :-)) that dropped and stopped within a two feet for a kick-in might be the shot of the week for me.  LL: 92, 92 back-to-back on the same day. Tried my darndest hard to break 90 but couldn't twice. Best shot 8 iron on 7th par 3 from 155 for a bird.  Lac La Bell: 107. Forgettable day score-wise except for holes 15-16 where I finally hit couple of good drives.  
    • Pretty amazing for a $500 box. Close enough for me.  
    • I played roller coaster golf. This is going to be a lengthy recap. I’m not expecting people to read through the whole thing; it’s more for my own entertainment purposes to go back over some of these holes. Day 1 (Sandbox and Mammoth Dunes) I made par on #16 at SB by hitting a PW as hard as I could to the front of the green and then putting from there to 8’ from the back hole location. The hole was 170 from the tee and the longest club I had was PW. It sounds a lot easier in writing than it was. I didn’t play that well at MD. Probably hit a few good drives, but I don’t remember doing anything remarkable. Day 2 (SB and Sand Valley) Made birdie on #7 at SB. Teed off with putter, hit it to 3’. Hit an 8i on #16 at SB to 8’. It’s a Redan and I hit a fade. @DaveP043 showed us how it’s supposed to be played by hitting a draw to the front of the green and letting the ball roll up to the hole about 6’ away. Didn’t play well at SV on the first round, but I hit some good drives and made a few pars, including on #18 where I hit driver-3w into the sand area to the right of the green, hit a 30 yard blind sand shot just off the green and made par from there. Day 3 (SB and SV) Birdied #7 again at SB. Again teed off with putter but not great, holed a 20’ putt for birdie. Quit golf on the 3rd hole at SV, so naturally, I birdied #4. Hit a good drive and 2h just left of the green, had a ridiculous putt from the top of a hill that hit a sprinkler head and trickled to tap in distance. Hit 4i-2h on #6, GIR and 4-putted. Dave measured my first putt - I was 40 yards from the hole. Hit a perfect drive over the sand pyramid on #7 (I was on top of it the day before), followed by an easy 2h I wanted to run up to the green, which I pulled slightly but it bounced off a hill and rolled onto the green anyway. Had a 30’ putt for eagle, 3-putted for par. Birdied #12. Like @saevel25, I also went driver-7i and put it on the green. Made par on #14 which I described in the Best Shot of the Week thread. That 6i was probably in the top 5 most pure shots I have ever hit. It started on the line I wanted, turned exactly how I pictured it, and flew exactly the right distance. Missed the 6’ putt for birdie which I really wanted to make with the other group watching on the tee. I hit a good drive on #18 and tried to hit a 2h into the fairway short of the green. Ended up flaring it way right into the Sahara. Matt later asked if I hit a good shot because it looked like I was posing, and I told him I was so gassed I just didn’t want to move after the shot 😂 Day 4 (Lawsonia Links x 2) Got my best score of the trip here with an 87 in our first round. I hit some good shots, but nothing really spectacular. Just made fewer mistakes overall. Made birdie on #9 after hitting my drive into the fescue. Hit a 7i back into the fairway and a low spinner to 3’, which was still outside Dave’s blind third shot from the fairway bunker which he put to 2’. Day 5 (Lac La Belle) Made a really good decision to grab breakfast at Fresh Baked Cafe in Oconomowoc. The beers were cold at the end of the round. I seriously played like crap.
  • Today's Birthdays

    1. 3putt71
      3putt71
      (64 years old)
    2. cdutra40
      cdutra40
      (22 years old)
    3. Doovy
      Doovy
      (27 years old)
    4. JLeeWildcat9
      JLeeWildcat9
      (35 years old)

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...