Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
iacas

Girl Loses U.S. Junior Match After Raking Back Short Putt

Note: This thread is 923 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

124 posts / 12170 viewsLast Reply

Recommended Posts

This article had an interesting detail: http://golfweek.com/2017/07/28/us-girls-junior-semifinal-ends-in-concession-controversy/

Shepherd said her caddie, University of Indianapolis coach Brent Nicoson, asked if she had conceded the putt.

I wonder if the coach knew what he was doing there (and, if he did, he should be ashamed of himself). And it sounds like the girl wanted to concede the stroke and keep playing. Also relevant:

Nicoson said both players handled a difficult situation better than many adults.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Register for free today and you won't see this ad spot again!

8 hours ago, DeadMan said:

I wonder if the coach knew what he was doing there (and, if he did, he should be ashamed of himself).

I disagree.

Look, the girl who putted didn't even look over. She gave no time to concede, immediately raking the ball back like she'd lost the hole.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

1 hour ago, iacas said:

I disagree.

Look, the girl who putted didn't even look over. She gave no time to concede, immediately raking the ball back like she'd lost the hole.

agree with the above.  everyone is focused on the other players "intent" and not the "intent" of the one immediately raking the ball like she lost the hole.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

On 7/28/2017 at 8:38 PM, saevel25 said:

 

Another question is, if you notice the opponent pick up the ball with out being conceded, and do not mention anything. Are you in violation of waiving the rules of golf and disqualified? 

Not in a match play competition.  The opponent can choose to ignore the breach, and once they play from the next tee, it becomes moot.  

In order for waiving a rule to be a breach, it must be a mutual agreement between 2 or more players.  One player cannot "agree" to waive a rule.  If a single player intentionally breaches a rule, he is just subject to the penalty for that rule.  If his opponent chooses to ignore it without any discussion, then there is no foul.  

Since the rule breach can only affect the player's opponent, it's not the same situation as in a stroke play event where an unreported breach can potentially affect other players in the field.

Edited by Fourputt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

11 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Not in a match play competition.  The opponent can choose to ignore the breach, and once they play from the next tee, it becomes moot.  

In order for waiving a rule to be a breach, it must be a mutual agreement between 2 or more players.  One player cannot "agree" to waive a rule.  If a single player intentionally breaches a rule, he is just subject to the penalty for that rule.  If his opponent chooses to ignore it without any discussion, then there is no foul.  

Since the rule breach can only affect the player's opponent, it's not the same situation as in a stroke play event where an unreported breach can potentially affect other players in the field.

It's also worth mentioning that, if both players are unsure of the proper ruling and/or procedure in a given situation, they can agree between themselves how to proceed.  Again, it only affects their match.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

1 hour ago, kenstl said:

agree with the above.  everyone is focused on the other players "intent" and not the "intent" of the one immediately raking the ball like she lost the hole.  

The reason for this is because nobody is disputing the losing girls mistake.  It was a big one and it's not at issue.  This is not a zero sum situation and there is not a finite amount of blame to be doled out.

Winning girl or her coach or caddy should have just walked to the next tee and started playing on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

53 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Winning girl or her coach or caddy should have just walked to the next tee and started playing on.

Why?

They didn't even have the chance. They would literally be overlooking a breach of the Rules. That's their right in match play, but it's not as cut and dry from an integrity standpoint because the other person goofed, and ultimately you're playing to win. This isn't holding a door for someone or a matter of politeness. It's a competition.

The girl incurred the penalty before they could even concede. She lost the hole in that instant. The hole was over. They literally couldn't concede anything on that hole at that point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I hope all the Newport Cup players are paying attention ;-)

Moon isn't the victim here, well maybe from her own mistake. She didn't hear Shepherd concede and obviously didn't look over to Shepherd after she missed the putt. Is it good sportsmanship to go along with a clear rules violation?

It doesn't matter that the putt would have been conceded, you don't just rake putts away in a national championship without a clear concession. 

Saw someone on FB comparing this to Nicklaus conceding Jacklin's putt in the Ryder Cup, it's a completely different thing. Shepherd didn't have a chance to concede the putt.

3 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

Winning girl or her coach or caddy should have just walked to the next tee and started playing on.

Not sure if they would have made it that far. You have a rules official there and hopefully Moon's caddy (or Moon) would have said something. Moon doesn't get to decide if the putt is good or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

2 hours ago, iacas said:

Why?

They didn't even have the chance. They would literally be overlooking a breach of the Rules. That's their right in match play, but it's not as cut and dry from an integrity standpoint because the other person goofed, and ultimately you're playing to win. This isn't holding a door for someone or a matter of politeness. It's a competition.

The girl incurred the penalty before they could even concede. She lost the hole in that instant. The hole was over. They literally couldn't concede anything on that hole at that point.

Agree.  Raking the 4" putt is no different than any other rules violation, not sure why this one should be overlooked.  The girl's frustration and loss of focus due to a missed birdie putt is just something I am sure she has already taken ownership of.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

3 hours ago, mvmac said:

I hope all the Newport Cup players are paying attention ;-)

Amen to this.  Almost all of my matches are played with/against my friends, or against nearby clubs in what we strive to make a friendly atmosphere.  The Newport Cup is no different that way, we come to the course as friends, and plan to leave as even better friends, but we're also trying to win matches.  This is exactly why I make my own concessions clear, both in words and in volume, and why I make certain that I don't misunderstand my opponents words.  This is why you should never pick up your ball in a match unless you know for certain that the next shot is conceded, or doesn't matter to the match.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

2 hours ago, Hardspoon said:

Not that it matters, but it was a bit more than a 4" putt...it might even be outside "the leather".

I changed the title. The 4" was from the article I read, IIRC.

Oh, yeah, it's quoted in the first post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I'm not gonna argue.  But I'm not winning a match that way, period.

In October, if any east players have a 4" putt and take it before I have a chance to concede, I'm not saying anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

35 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

I'm not gonna argue.  But I'm not winning a match that way, period.

I'm not sure you're understanding my point… Moon lost the hole when she raked the putt back. She moved a ball at rest. The hole was literally over. Shepherd scored a 5, and Moon would have had a putt of about a foot for a 6 (after she replaced her ball).

Shepherd had no chance to concede.

So you're saying one of two three things:

  • You'd lie to say "I conceded that" even though you hadn't.
  • You'd have to say or communicate "I'm willing to overlook the rules breach, but if you put your ball back, I'll concede your putt, overlook the penalty, and we'll halve the hole." That's awkward.
  • You'd agree to add a stroke to your score so you could both have a 6 and halve the hole, even though you'd made a 5.

None of those seem like a "good" way to go.

Shepherd did nothing dishonorable. She did nothing sleazy, slimy, scummy, or even in poor etiquette or impolite.

Should the other team have given the ball back to Plaxico Burress when he did this?

He'd just from college where when you go down, you're down (IIRC), or maybe as they said he thought he'd been touched… so should the Jaguars have just given the Steelers the ball back where he went down?

Why not? Because it's a sport.

Does it suck to win that way? Yeah. But Moon is the one who made the mistake. Not Shepherd. And it's a competitive round.

@NatalieB has made two mistakes in playing competitive golf:

  • She chipped up to the edge of the cup, so close we waited to see if it would fall in. Before I could take the flagstick out, she tapped in. Two strokes.
  • She hit another player's ball on the putting green. Her ball was going very slowly and the balls actually finished basically touching (or within an inch of each other - I couldn't see from the side). Two stroke penalty.

Those errors shouldn't be excused, and I wouldn't think of asking for them to be overlooked by her fellow competitors, and were I her, I'd have signed for the proper score - including both penalty strokes.

35 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

In October, if any east players have a 4" putt and take it before I have a chance to concede, I'm not saying anything.

In October, I expect both players to play by the Rules of Golf.

Moon lost the hole when she moved a ball at rest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

13 hours ago, iacas said:

I disagree.

Look, the girl who putted didn't even look over. She gave no time to concede, immediately raking the ball back like she'd lost the hole.

Moon screwed up, I definitely agree with that.

My opinion is that you are supposed to win with honor in golf, and winning a match over a putt you would have conceded is not winning with honor. Compare what happened here with this:

https://twitter.com/KylePorterCBS/status/891394885542174723

That is sportsmanship and honor. I want to win by playing my best, not because my opponent violated the rules. If the coach knew he could force the win by speaking up, he's prioritizing winning too much in my book. He should have said something before Moon raked her putt back (which, obviously, isn't really possible here) or let the player handle it. Or, at worst, whisper something to his player and let her decide what to do. The fact that the match would have continued without him speaking up just rubs me the wrong way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

1 minute ago, DeadMan said:

Moon screwed up, I definitely agree with that.

My opinion is that you are supposed to win with honor in golf, and winning a match over a putt you would have conceded is not winning with honor. Compare what happened here with this:

So, you say that Shepard should have dishonorably waived the rules under the some misguided attempt to be honorable? 

2 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

That is sportsmanship and honor. I want to win by playing my best, not because my opponent violated the rules. 

Touch S***, the rules of golf can not be waived. Doing so means they both should be disqualified. There is no leeway on this. It isn't a technicality, the girl violated the rules. She made a mistake. She should not have. No one is at fault for this violation but her. 

Let me say this, what about all the other golfers who competed? How should they feel if those two decided and were granted to play under a different set of rules? How honorable is that? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

3 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

So, you say that Shepard should have dishonorably waived the rules under the some misguided attempt to be honorable? 

Touch S***, the rules of golf can not be waived. Doing so means they both should be disqualified. There is no leeway on this. It isn't a technicality, the girl violated the rules. She made a mistake. She should not have. No one is at fault for this violation but her. 

Let me say this, what about all the other golfers who competed? How should they feel if those two decided and were granted to play under a different set of rules? How honorable is that? 

It's match play. You can ignore your opponent's breach of the rules if you want, as has been stated multiple times in this thread. They wouldn't have been waiving the rules of golf. 

At this point, there's 4 golfers left and they aren't playing the field. They are playing one other person. Ignoring Moon picking up her ball like this matters to literally no one else.

And yes, the sporting thing to do is to ignore it and win the match by playing better than your opponent. 

Edited by DeadMan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Note: This thread is 923 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  



  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • 2020 TST Partners

    PING Golf
    FlightScope Mevo
  • Posts

    • No, that's your question. Like I've said, I don't have to question it, just like I don't have to walk off a cliff to know that gravity will make that a one-time experiment. Why do I know the JV golf swing will lose distance? Because you're removing a lever and a speed-producing part with the torso rotation. This will be simplified a little bit, but the JV golf swing generates speed by moving (effectively) two things: the lead arm across the chest and the wrist-shaft angle - hinging/unhinging (or "lag"). The "traditional" swing (as if there is only just "one" type of swing) retains those two levers - the lead arm across the chest and the "lag" - and adds another: the rotation of the lead shoulder back and around. It doesn't move super fast in linear MPH, but it moves very fast rotationally, and acts as a moving platform against which the lead arm can act. A baseball player can throw a baseball 90 MPH from a mound, but put that mound on a flatbed rail car and make the train travel at 60 MPH, and he can throw the ball 150 MPH. The torso rotation isn't the dominant speed generator in the golf swing - that is still the arms - but there is no doubt that it adds speed to the clubhead. I don't have to walk off a cliff to know that gravity is going to make it a one-time deal. I have. I've made swings in a JV style swing. Someone above linked to my "pre-set drill" and it's pretty similar to the JV swing. I lose about 10% of my distance and would lose more except I tend to have far more than optimal shaft lean when I do this and so the ball launches about two clubs lower. The "why" is above. Now, if you were a "bad" golfer who flipped, had poor contact, etc. then you could see a "similar" distance with a swing that made it a bit easier to have good contact (or even, as with me, lower launch angles due to "too much" shaft lean). But that doesn't mean your swing speed is actually higher, or that you haven't put a "ceiling" on your improvement that's lower than your ceiling with a "traditional" swing. That's not accurate. There might not be an "abundant" number for a bunch of reasons, including the possibility that JV probably doesn't have that many students. That they have better things to do, that they moved on… whatever. Lots of reasons why there might not be an "abundance of people." It's very similar, yes. They do. They also… turn their shoulders quite a bit. Jamie Sadlowski can hit a driver 300 yards from his knees (even though he still gets to turn his torso a little bit)… what he can't do is hit it as far as he can letting his hips and torso fully rotate: There you go. An example of someone who has a lower ceiling. I suspect he hasn't published anything because it would show what science says it would show: a decrease in swing speed.
    • Okay, this was a new one.  I was at the range this weekend. And a couple of guys were kind of sitting behind me on the benches they have there. I guess they were watching me, because all of a sudden one of them pipes up and says "Hey, do you realize you never sole your driver behind the ball?" …  At first I wasn't sure he was talking to me. Then when I realized he was, I asked him to repeat the question. He did. I told him I never really thought about it.  Anyhow, to make a long story short, he went on and on about how I should "Sole" the driver behind the ball. It would increase my "Muscle Memory" to help my consistency. I thanked him politely and told him I'd discuss it with my swing coach.  A few things: 1 - I don't think I've ever "Soled" my driver behind the ball. I've had 2 long term and a half dozen other swing coaches and none of them have EVER mention it to me.  2 - I've never seen this guy getting lessons at the range even though they have a half dozen teaching pros operating out of that place. I've also seen this guy play golf and he's not particularly good.  3 - I've never actually noticed if this is a common practice among good golfers, either the pros or the single digits or scratch players I know. I've simply never thought about it.  4 - I should mention this comment came at an odd time as I was hitting the driver really well that day. Very consistent. So, I don't know how much he was watching. But the question/comment struck me as odd.  Anyhow, after the dude mentioned it to me I took notice of what I actually do. I pretty much just hover the driver behind the ball and then begin my backswing. He's right I never put the club on the ground, or "Sole" it as he called it. Maybe it started back when I was a beginner I've always paid a lot for my driver and I probably didn't want to get it dirty.  So, I ask the crowd. Do you "sole" your driver? 
    • To me, this is the most telling thing.  He's trying to "sell" his instruction, sell his swing, with generalities and claims, but with no data.  I feel pretty certain that if he COULD produce data that would help his marketing, he would have done it already.  The absence of real data suggests, at least to me, that proper data wouldn't help him.  I can certainly believe that this "simplified" swing can help many players have more consistent contact.  I find it really difficult to believe that this swing doesn't limit the top-end potential for most players, simply because it eliminates some of the sources of swing speed used in more complicated but traditional swing mechanics.
    • Looking at my scores over the past 2 seasons, walking has given me the best low scores but only if I use my push cart. The push cart has a seat so I can sit and rest as needed. I like to play quickly and riding in a cart tends to get me to the ball too quickly. I tend to take one quick look at the shot and swing. If I am walking, I have time to consider the shot and find I make better judgements. So, all in all, walking with a push cart is better than riding. Riding is better than carrying my clubs once warm weather arrives.
    • I had mentioned in a previous post you can determine this yourself so easily.   Get a swing speed radar or go to a golf place that has one you can use.  Take full swings without hitting a ball with both your traditional swing and the JV swing.   Ultimately the ceiling of a swings distance capability is club head speed.
  • TST Blog Entries

  • Blog Entries

  • Today's Birthdays

    1. Ailsa
      Ailsa
      (68 years old)
    2. davechen
      davechen
      (53 years old)
    3. Harry Humphries
      Harry Humphries
      (32 years old)
    4. LagShaft
      LagShaft
      (44 years old)

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...