Ideal Pitching/Layup Distance

[chilepepper]

My normal mindset is to get as close as I can. If I did lay up it would be because of some kind of trouble that I couldn't get over, around or under .

[boogielicious]

12 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

 

Really dumb ideas, these two.  Particularly the second one.  I don't know what they're smoking.  The correct answer is to be as risky as possible and lay back to at least 110-115 yards whenever possible.  More than that is better.  Do both of those, all the time, and you're golden.*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* (There is a small chance I'm completely making shit up and messing with these two because they are the enemy come Newport Cup time, but it's only a small chance.  You be the judge.) 

 NO! If you live west of the Mississippi, the ideal layup yardage is 137. Don't mess that up in The Newport Cup or the West team will struggle!

[Valleygolfer]

I don't think there is a lay up distance to shoot for but I do like a 70ish yard shot in. Not a full lob wedge but a comfortable swing for  me.  I rarely lay up but if I am blocked off on the par 5, 11th hole at my course, I still try to bite off as much as I can chew rather than picking a distance.  Learn to flight your wedges and distance won't matter.

[MarvChamp]

My age/swing speed/distances all mean that I often cannot reach the green in 2, even if playing forward tees. So I play for personal par, bogey, and shoot for par when I can. This means I play for targets and distances. I use a lot of 40-60 yard shots and I practice them, along with chips for when I am closer. Works for me. My HI fell a little in July. Will be more in August. -Marv

[Moxley]

Thanks for all the insightful responses. Looks like consensus, backed up by stats, says just get closer. Except perhaps when Hazards or lie conditions could be a factor closer in. 

Fair enough :)

[mcanadiens]

Like that commercial with Kuchar. "I like to position my drives at the bottom of the cup."

[klineka]

I will say that on one of the par 5s from my practice round saturday, I was in the middle of the fairway about 240 yds out to a back pin location. I hit the 3 hybrid. topped the first shot only about 20-30 yards. Not good. Dropped another one and hit it, went about about 210-215 just short of the green, leaving me an easy chip. Did the chip and 2 putted for a "5" had that not been a mulligan shot. That is the issue that I face currently with "going for it" on par 5s. Sure it can give me a good chance to score, but also brought the 20 yard topped shot into play. I know I can execute the long shot with the hybrid or 3 wood, but the frequency that I am successful is not high enough in my opinion to save me shots.

I also tend to feel myself overswinging when I go for it on par 5, but if I use a mid iron and lay up, the swing always seems to be much smoother because I know I cant reach the green. 

[Shindig]

2 hours ago, klineka said:

I also tend to feel myself overswinging when I go for it on par 5, but if I use a mid iron and lay up, the swing always seems to be much smoother because I know I cant reach the green. 

I have this issue when I'm hitting 3-wood.  What I do is tell myself I'm aiming to a target at a comfortable 3-wood distance away.  So if I'm 240 out and I hit my 3-wood 200, I'm picking a spot 40 yards short of the eventual goal and thinking of that as the "green" I'm aiming for.  Now I don't have to worry about powering my 3-wood, because the comfortable swing gets me there.

[rehmwa]

I really like to hit my LW between 60 and 80 yards.  But it's important to remember - a good shot from 80 yards is likely still farther from the pin than a medicore or crappy shot from 20 - 30 yards.

.

IMO - if the goal is to get as short a putt as possible, get the approach shot close as you can while avoiding hazards.  If that's an issue in your game, then maybe practicing those shorter shots is a good return on your practice time instead of unnecessarily laying up to longer approaches.

[amished]

2 hours ago, klineka said:

I will say that on one of the par 5s from my practice round saturday, I was in the middle of the fairway about 240 yds out to a back pin location. I hit the 3 hybrid. topped the first shot only about 20-30 yards. Not good. Dropped another one and hit it, went about about 210-215 just short of the green, leaving me an easy chip. Did the chip and 2 putted for a "5" had that not been a mulligan shot. That is the issue that I face currently with "going for it" on par 5s. Sure it can give me a good chance to score, but also brought the 20 yard topped shot into play. I know I can execute the long shot with the hybrid or 3 wood, but the frequency that I am successful is not high enough in my opinion to save me shots.

I also tend to feel myself overswinging when I go for it on par 5, but if I use a mid iron and lay up, the swing always seems to be much smoother because I know I cant reach the green. 

Sounds like you need to work on your long game to remove those topped shots from play.

[klineka]

28 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

IMO - if the goal is to get as short a putt as possible, get the approach shot close as you can while avoiding hazards.  If that's an issue in your game, then maybe practicing those shorter shots is a good return on your practice time instead of unnecessarily laying up to longer approaches.

As I have mentioned earlier in this thread, my issue is not with the 20-30 yard shots. I agree that a bad 80 yd shot will end up further away than a bad 20 yd shot will. No doubt about that. My issue is the long iron/hybrid shot from 240 and just how bad my misses can be with those clubs. Perfect example of that is the example I gave earlier from my round on Saturday. I had a MUCH higher chance of advancing the ball further and in play with a 7 iron or 8 iron than I did with the hybrid. 7 or 8 iron is 160-170, which would have left me 70 to 80 yards into the pin, around an 80-90%  lob wedge. 

If I was playing a real round and counting every stroke, I topped my first shot with the hybrid, so I would have been hitting my 3rd shot from 200+ yards out, pretty much guaranteeing me at least a 6 for that hole. (get a nGIR with the 3rd shot, chip on for the 4th, 2 putt) 

Hitting my 3rd shot from 70-80 yards out I have a much greater chance of getting a 5 from there than I do getting a 6 from there. 

When I did go for it and was about 20 yards short, I still had to chip and 2 putt, resulting in a 5. 

For me, the best outcome from 240 yds (putting it to 10-20 yds short of the green) doesnt outweigh how horrible the misses can be with the hybrid/long iron. It is not my short game that is preventing me from attempting to go for maximum distance, it is my long game.

21 minutes ago, amished said:

Sounds like you need to work on your long game to remove those topped shots from play.

That is exactly what I have been working on at the range lately, trying to get comfortable with the hybrid, 4,5,6 irons, but for now, The best way to reduce the chance of a 6 or a 7 on a par 5 is by holding back and leaving myself 50-100 yds for my 3rd shot.

[rehmwa]

30 minutes ago, klineka said:

As I have mentioned earlier in this thread, my issue is not with the 20-30 yard shots. I agree that a bad 80 yd shot will end up further away than a bad 20 yd shot will. No doubt about that. My issue is the long iron/hybrid shot from 240 and just how bad my misses can be with those clubs.

Well, I did say a bad 20 yard shot is likely better than a good 80 yard shot.

 

Ahhh - I had it backwards then - you certainly do understand the reasoning, but those long clubs are trouble (for now) for you.  I get that.....i REALLY get that.

I had the same situation this last week after a great drive on a long par 5.  I dubbed the 3 wood.  Certainly I would have scored better with a layup and approach than dubbing my 3w and then having to recover.....but the theory is sound.  My lesson is to practice that fairway wood shot rather than hiding from it.

However, that next long par 5 it worked out great more like we are talking about.  As any sort of good contact on the previous hole would have.  (i.e., my 3w dubs will still scull up about as far as a clean 7i, so my worst results usually is equivalent to a layup, and the average result gets me 80-100 yards closer than that) - YMMV

But I still sympathize...

Get more comfy with those long irons and hybrids and the payoff is pretty substantial for this type of situation - good luck and be sure you're having fun.

Edited August 7, 2017 by rehmwa

[amished]

1 hour ago, klineka said:

That is exactly what I have been working on at the range lately, trying to get comfortable with the hybrid, 4,5,6 irons, but for now, The best way to reduce the chance of a 6 or a 7 on a par 5 is by holding back and leaving myself 50-100 yds for my 3rd shot.

This seems like the difference between wanting to score well now vs. scoring well in the future.  Because according to the topic, *IDEALLY* you want to be as close as possible.  Because you have a swing flaw, you can't hit certain clubs, but that's not the same as getting as close as possible.  If you can't hit your 6 iron, use your 7 to get *as close as possible* and not some random distance.

[Moxley]

1 hour ago, amished said:

Sounds like you need to work on your long game to remove those topped shots from play.

Most aspects of course management would be unnecessary if only one was able to work on improving the underlying weaknesses that make it necessary in the first place. It's often about getting the best return from limited practice time. 

The interesting thing about topped shots (as well as fat shots) is that while I'd very much consider it a beginner problem, which I can easily play a full round without it happening, I am also susceptible to a couple of these on an off day. While I can do it from all sorts of scenarios ,I often find it's more likely to happen when I'm trying to welly a shot a long way and it's not on the tee. Even though I know I can hit a 200 shot with my 7 wood, it doesn't mean that I won't horribly mishit it when staring into the distance at a small green. 

[Moxley]

14 minutes ago, amished said:

This seems like the difference between wanting to score well now vs. scoring well in the future.  Because according to the topic, *IDEALLY* you want to be as close as possible.  Because you have a swing flaw, you can't hit certain clubs, but that's not the same as getting as close as possible.  If you can't hit your 6 iron, use your 7 to get *as close as possible* and not some random distance.

I see it as a bit more blurred than that. While I accept the stats pointed out to me about laying up ( I googled and found them since Dave mentioned them early in the thread) , I think there can be sometimes be a case for balancing a negative against a positive. 

Along the lines of  'If I try and hit my 7 wood this distance I might well go into a hazard, come up short, or totally mishit it ,but if I take a 5 iron, I'm more confident my next shot will be a good one, and I ALSO know I really like being about 40 yds out'.

I do get the point made that deliberatly under hitting to land a given distance out (in the absence of other factors) is less optimal, but I don't think it should rule out considering landing in your comfort zone as a relevant bonus when making decisions which are perhaps already marginal.

[DaveP043]

22 minutes ago, Moxley said:

I do get the point made that deliberatly under hitting to land a given distance out (in the absence of other factors) is less optimal, but I don't think it should rule out considering landing in your comfort zone as a relevant bonus when making decisions which are perhaps already marginal.

This makes sense to me, and seems to be consistent with the overall thinking we're talking about.  You don't want to take on too much risk with your first shot in order to improve your chances on your second.  If a "long" shot is more risky, that has to be a factor in deciding your course of action,   just like hazards and OB.  As mentioned, the long term goal is to get better at all of the long-game shots.  short term, balance the risks for each shot along the way.

[iacas]

This merits more weight than it was given.

2 hours ago, amished said:

Sounds like you need to work on your long game to remove those topped shots from play.

You're a 13 who regularly tops a hybrid 20 yards, @klineka? Really?

[klineka]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

This merits more weight than it was given.

You're a 13 who regularly tops a hybrid 20 yards, @klineka? Really?

I definitely dont top them regularly, but between the occasional topped shot and then how wide the dispersion can be left and right, it can be some bad misses. The topped shot comes from me trying not to hit the hybrid and long irons fat, something I tend to do quite often at the range with the longer clubs.

The worst of the worst tend to stick out in my mind and thoughts of those like to creep back in when I'm faced with similar type shots.

It is definitely something I am actively working on. Most of the courses I do play are short, 5800-6300 yds, so I have had limited need for long iron shots thus far since I've been golfing more seriously. Its not all that often that I was faced with these kinds of shots, often par 5s I play are <500 yards, but since I have started moving to longer yardage tees/courses, I can definitely tell this is a weakness.