Ideal Pitching/Layup Distance

[Jack Watson]

For me strategy is hole dependent.  530 yard par five straight ob left all the way?  Get as close as possible if not on.  Except the left ob not much to worry about.

There's a lot of fives I play though that are just obvious three shotters.  The way it's designed there's nothing good for me to go for or I can play the layup and try to get as close as I can taking big trouble mostly out of play.

My best yardage is probably 125-130 but I would never intentionally lay back there if I could get closer.  I try to get as close as I can on the second without being dumb.  Some courses I play the second is required to fit into too small a space for my 220 plus dispersion.

Id rather sit 90 fw than be down some cliff or into a hazard.   I've played with guys whose automatic pull second shot is fw wood and almost always I beat them.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Jack Watson

[klineka]

2 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

 Some courses I play the second is required to fit into too small a space for my 220 plus dispersion.

Id rather sit 90 fw than be down some cliff or into a hazard.

This sums up really what I have been trying to say.

Many of the courses I play have greens and fairways that are surrounded by trees that are well within my shot dispersion, so previously me playing short was a sure fire way to avoid those. 

But now I've learned that if I want to have any chance at eagle and better chances at birdies on par 5s that I need to get my long game better, quickly. 

[Jack Watson]

14 minutes ago, klineka said:

But now I've learned that if I want to have any chance at eagle and better chances at birdies on par 5s that I need to get my long game better, quickly. 

This is a real weakness for me.  Say 215-245 yard approaches.  I pretty much don't do em anymore.  Birdies definitely not out of play though...

[Piz]

For 215 yard shots I just dial back my 230 yard shot 15 yards.  For 245 yard approaches; I just add 15 yards to my 230 yard shot.  That leaves me, on average, between 100 and 125 out...an easy wedge...provided I hold my mouth right.

[David in FL]

16 minutes ago, Piz said:

For 215 yard shots I just dial back my 230 yard shot 15 yards.  For 245 yard approaches; I just add 15 yards to my 230 yard shot.  That leaves me, on average, between 100 and 125 out...an easy wedge...provided I hold my mouth right.

Yeah, me too.  For 300 yards, I just add 85 yards to my 215 yard shot...  

[Aguirre]

Closest you can get to the green sounds great. However, I can get pretty wild with my 5W or 3W, particularly the latter. So I'm paying attention to the trouble, and if there's enough trouble I'm just going to hit my 7W, 9W or appropriate iron to get around 90 yards. That's about a full LW. If I go too far, 64 degree wedge. Too short, SW. 

So it's not the approach shot yardage that may make me play to an area, but the potential wild results from the longer woods.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Aguirre

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, Aguirre said:

Closest you can get to the green sounds great. However, I can get pretty wild with my 5W or 3W, particularly the latter. So I'm paying attention to the trouble, and if there's enough trouble I'm just going to hit my 7W, 9W or appropriate iron to get around 90 yards. That's about a full LW. If I go too far, 64 degree wedge. Too short, SW. 

So it's not the approach shot yardage that may make me play to an area, but the potential wild results from the longer woods.

All covered in LSW, specifically, in the thing we call "The Rule."

[Aguirre]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

All covered in LSW, specifically, in the thing we call "The Rule."

Oh, I assumed you covered that. From what I understand, the approach the book recommends mirrors my mathematical approach I have on almost everything save for women. I need more math with my women because I love the crazy ones.

 

I'm curious, is there a section in your book that covers scramble play? Because I can't tell you how many times I've had disagreements in scrambles where partners are measuring a putt based on how they'd play their own individual ball and not the fact that we're not going to three putt.

 

And I'd frankly love something that's published to show them how they're wrong and I'm right.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Aguirre

[Midpack]

Interesting thread. I do prefer to hit a full club to partial swings in that 50-80 yard range. I'm happy hitting from 90-150 yards. But if there aren't a lot of hazards in play I will always try to get as close as possible. If there are lots of hazards, water or big slopes (elevated greens) and I'm more than 225 yards away, I will often layup to leave myself 90-120 yards. Partial swings to an elevated green with slopes all around, or flop shots over hazards are two shots I try not to leave myself. YMMV

[klineka]

8 hours ago, iacas said:

All covered in LSW, specifically, in the thing we call "The Rule."

A week and a half until I can get my copy! I cant wait! Maybe I should just pick it up from you on Saturday, read it twice then golf with the outing Sunday instead of Saturday! haha. 

[Grinde6]

On ‎8‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 6:01 PM, iacas said:

Well…

The both of you may very well be the exceptions to the rule, but you probably owe it to yourself to make sure that your perceptions are aligned with reality.

I've studied enough golfers and have enough statistics to know that I'd take that bet all day, every day, and win a LOT more often than I'd lose.

@klineka, you miss the green entirely from 95 yards (with a full lob wedge?) more often than you think. And you hit it to the fringe, or 45 feet away, more often than you think.

Huh?  Take what bet?  That 90-120 is a comfortable distance for me where I can control the spin better than a 50-70 yard shot?  I read LSW and I do understand that the closer you are to the green the better your chance at a better score and when the conditions/greens are receptive I do this every time.  The only issue with that is here in ND our courses are dry...our greens are watered just enough so that they don't turn brown...so it is very hard to get a 50-70 yard shot to stop...I know that if I am 90-120 out its a 60*-56* and I can hit it high and let it bounce and roll out 5' or so.  Beginning of the year or when the greens are more receptive, yes I will hit the 50-70 all day, but for the most part in ND its too dry to hit a 50 yard pitch 30 yards and let it roll out 20 yards or so (exaggerating a bit).

Edited August 8, 2017 by Grinde6
Clarify

[RayG]

I only have 2 yardages I use for "laying up". 85 and 100- SW and GW. I use those numbers IF and WHEN I need them. I have started being more aggressive on Par 5's and will just give it a go instead of setting up that 3rd shot. Depending on the hole, conditions, trouble, etc... I always try to stick to those numbers ( or close enough) when laying back. Even on short par 4's that might be out my drivers range but a perfect range for a 3wd/SW. It is much easier to take that full swing with known variables that attempting a 1/2 swing trying to be perfect.

Now, saying that- there are a couple of my friends who have ABSOLUTELY no short game whatsoever for all practical purposes. Yet they insist on getting as close as possible (inside 50 yds or so) and then chili chunk the next 2 or 3 shots, get all mad and complain. They SHOULD be laying to a good number that a full wedge or whatever will get them there. But you cant tell them that

[saevel25]

56 minutes ago, Grinde6 said:

The only issue with that is here in ND our courses are dry...our greens are watered just enough so that they don't turn brown...so it is very hard to get a 50-70 yard shot to stop...I know that if I am 90-120 out its a 60*-56* and I can hit it high and let it bounce and roll out 5' or so.  Beginning of the year or when the greens are more receptive, yes I will hit the 50-70 all day, but for the most part in ND its too dry to hit a 50 yard pitch 30 yards and let it roll out 20 yards or so (exaggerating a bit).

Then that is a special case though. If you have a lot of force carry shots, then trajectory matters a lot. I agree, you can get a higher shot with a full swing than a partial swing. If you have a good distance from the edge of the green to the pin, or room to land the ball near the front of the green, you should see better results being closer to the hole.

 

 

[DaveP043]

7 minutes ago, RayG said:

I only have 2 yardages I use for "laying up". 85 and 100- SW and GW. I use those numbers IF and WHEN I need them. I have started being more aggressive on Par 5's and will just give it a go instead of setting up that 3rd shot. Depending on the hole, conditions, trouble, etc... I always try to stick to those numbers ( or close enough) when laying back. Even on short par 4's that might be out my drivers range but a perfect range for a 3wd/SW. It is much easier to take that full swing with known variables that attempting a 1/2 swing trying to be perfect.

I'd bet that with just a little practice, you can improve those half swing shots to the point that you get consistently closer from 50 yards than you do with a full swing from 85 yards.  Obviously there are certain circumstances where green conditions or pin placements make it more important to use the spin a full shot has, but on balance you'll do better from closer.

Up until a year or two back, I used the old conventional wisdom, generally tried to get the ball to no closer than 85 yards or so whenever I couldn't get really close to the green.  I've changed my thought process, and I'm scoring better.  Old dogs like me CAN learn new tricks, and this is a good one to learn.

[RayG]

7 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'd bet that with just a little practice, you can improve those half swing shots to the point that you get consistently closer from 50 yards than you do with a full swing from 85 yards.  Obviously there are certain circumstances where green conditions or pin placements make it more important to use the spin a full shot has, but on balance you'll do better from closer.

Up until a year or two back, I used the old conventional wisdom, generally tried to get the ball to no closer than 85 yards or so whenever I couldn't get really close to the green.  I've changed my thought process, and I'm scoring better.  Old dogs like me CAN learn new tricks, and this is a good one to learn.

I agree with the fact that a bit of practice will help. BUT- at this time, I am much more comfortable taking the full from 85. And I'm sure I will be getting that practice since being more aggressive these days.

[amished]

11 minutes ago, RayG said:

I agree with the fact that a bit of practice will help. BUT- at this time, I am much more comfortable taking the full from 85. And I'm sure I will be getting that practice since being more aggressive these days.

Good choice.  I know most of us aren't pros, but they routinely flight down their wedges by not hitting a full swing and they still get plenty of spin on it.  You practice that shot, you'll do wonders for yourself!

[Foot Wedge]

7 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'd bet that with just a little practice, you can improve those half swing shots to the point that you get consistently closer from 50 yards than you do with a full swing from 85 yards.

Bingo.  I never wanted to be within 80 yards of the hole, but only because I couldn't pull off the partial wedges.  I felt a lot more comfortable with a stock PW than a 3/4 58*.  It felt like a big waste going Driver-9 iron-full wedge on a par 5 just to keep myself out of trouble.  Now I'm dedicating time to these shots and while not all the way ready, I ESTIMATE that with my 54* wedge, 1/2 swing is about 50 yards, and 3/4 is about 75 yards.  So different yardages would use these 2 swings, but with different lofted wedges.  I played a round last week and used both of these shots, however it was into temporary greens so spin wise I don't really know what it's doing yet.  I'll have to collect more data.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Grinde6 said:

Huh?  Take what bet?  That 90-120 is a comfortable distance for me where I can control the spin better than a 50-70 yard shot?  I read LSW and I do understand that the closer you are to the green the better your chance at a better score and when the conditions/greens are receptive I do this every time.  The only issue with that is here in ND our courses are dry...our greens are watered just enough so that they don't turn brown...so it is very hard to get a 50-70 yard shot to stop...I know that if I am 90-120 out its a 60*-56* and I can hit it high and let it bounce and roll out 5' or so.  Beginning of the year or when the greens are more receptive, yes I will hit the 50-70 all day, but for the most part in ND its too dry to hit a 50 yard pitch 30 yards and let it roll out 20 yards or so (exaggerating a bit).

The bet is that you'd still end up closer on average - even during the "dry" days - from 50 yards than you do from 100. (Especially since you're a low handicapper, so you can control some of the angles into which you come in to the hole locations from 50 yards, minimizing carries and such over bunkers.)

PGA Tour players play some awfully firm greens, and yet they are ALSO much better from 50 yards than 100.

That's the bet I'd take. Maybe - maybe - you're the exception to the rule sometimes throughout the year… but like I said, I'd still be willing to take that bet.

That's all. And obviously I've never seen you, and am going by the stats (and I've spent a lot of time on this, and have seen a lot of golfers who think they're the exception fail to win my "bets"). So you could be right. I'm just saying I'd bet you aren't as right as you think, and you may still be holding yourself back.

P.S. Also, consider learning to stop shots with trajectory a bit more so than with spin.