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2017 PGA Championship at Quail Hollow Discussion Thread

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8 minutes ago, NCGolfer said:

Would favor someone doing AimPoint.  ;-)

Took the words out of my mouth. ;-)

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25 minutes ago, NCGolfer said:

I struggled at #2 and a couple other courses with this grass.  It might be that it looks a lot different and it throws me off.

Don't worry Dave. I'll "feel" them for you in October. No looking necessary. ;-)

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2 hours ago, NCGolfer said:

I'll speak from experience here...not at Quail Hollow mind you.  Those types of greens (Champion Bermuda), I have found, are sometimes not easy to read.  They've put that strain of grass in a few places down here and it's really, really nice and you can speed the greens up in the summer which you can't do down south with bent without risk of damaging the greens.  Problem is that subtle breaks are hard to read.  Those 5-12 footers that look straight or might have a slight bit of turn are difficult.  Sometimes I'd rather have one that had more, and obvious, break.

 

1 hour ago, iacas said:

I don't think it's the grass. All very subtly almost flat greens are hard to read.

At higher stimps that is.

Yea from my experience frequently playing a couple old school Donald Ross courses (relatively flat, subtle greens), one of which now has this grass, my $0.02 is that you're both right. They were hard to read to begin with, and this type of grass probably makes it even a bit harder.

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If you played a drinking game, call it Captain Obvious, a gulp whenever someone says something like what IBF did, you would not make even halfway.

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2 hours ago, NCGolfer said:

I'll speak from experience here...not at Quail Hollow mind you.  Those types of greens (Champion Bermuda), I have found, are sometimes not easy to read.  They've put that strain of grass in a few places down here and it's really, really nice and you can speed the greens up in the summer which you can't do down south with bent without risk of damaging the greens.  Problem is that subtle breaks are hard to read.  Those 5-12 footers that look straight or might have a slight bit of turn are difficult.  Sometimes I'd rather have one that had more, and obvious, break.

I think that is the type of grass they used to redo the greens at Mid Pines, Talamore, and Pine Needles at Pinehurst. If that is the case, then those are some of the finest greens you can putt on. That type of Bermuda has very little of the traditional grain you see with typical Bermuda greens. The grass is dense and it putts pure.

2 hours ago, iacas said:

I don't think it's the grass. All very subtly almost flat greens are hard to read.

At higher stimps that is.

I find this to be true. Even with Aimpoint it can get tricky if  the read is something like a 1 to 1.5 read. For those who use their eyes I doubt we'll see them ever read enough break with out just making a judgment call to add more break from past experience.

43 minutes ago, skydog said:

Yea from my experience frequently playing a couple old school Donald Ross courses (relatively flat, subtle greens), one of which now has this grass, my $0.02 is that you're both right. They were hard to read to begin with, and this type of grass probably makes it even a bit harder.

Pretty much every Donald Ross green I have played on has a lot slope. They had to for drainage. That is why you get that upside down bowl design a lot. I do agree that there tends to be a lot more multiple breaks on a green complex, and it can be tricky. They are not flat.

 

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As I am watching the PGA Championship at work I saw Rory hitting from the green side bunker. His ball came out and struck Jon Rahm ball that was sitting on the green. Why do the pros not mark their balls when they are right there by the green?

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7 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Pretty much every Donald Ross green I have played on has a lot slope. They had to for drainage. That is why you get that upside down bowl design a lot. I do agree that there tends to be a lot more multiple breaks on a green complex, and it can be tricky. They are not flat.

 

They are sloped hard back to front (so yes, not flat) but don't have the countless huge rolls and contours that modern day designers try to put into greens.

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4 minutes ago, hillis11 said:

As I am watching the PGA Championship at work I saw Rory hitting from the green side bunker. His ball came out and struck Jon Rahm ball that was sitting on the green. Why do the pros not mark their balls when they are right there by the green?

I didn't see this shot you're referencing, but there's something of an unspoken agreement on tour to not mark, so everyone gets helped out. If there's too much heat on their bunker shots, your partner's ball will slow it down if it hits it. I see them do this all the time on tour. 

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3 minutes ago, skydog said:

They are sloped hard back to front (so yes, not flat) but don't have the countless huge rolls and contours that modern day designers try to put into greens.

Have you played a lot of Donald Ross courses? Very few Donald Ross greens are just simple front to back design. Each green on the course tend to be unique. I've seen greens with what looks like a channel running through the center of the green. I've seen greens with a big mound running up the green vertically, bisecting the green. I've seen greens where I've had 3-4 breaks going across a green on a long putt. I've seen greens where the whole green was an upside down bowl. I've seen one where the false front was a false back and if your ball hit the back 1/4th of the green it's going down 30 yards from the green.

 

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58 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Have you played a lot of Donald Ross courses? Very few Donald Ross greens are just simple front to back design. Each green on the course tend to be unique. I've seen greens with what looks like a channel running through the center of the green. I've seen greens with a big mound running up the green vertically, bisecting the green. I've seen greens where I've had 3-4 breaks going across a green on a long putt. I've seen greens where the whole green was an upside down bowl. I've seen one where the false front was a false back and if your ball hit the back 1/4th of the green it's going down 30 yards from the green.

 

There is also a misconception that he always crafted greens that were mounded like turtle shells. Most of that dome effect is the result of 100 years of sand top-dressing.

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Rickie playing very well - would be nice to see him stick in contention.

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Just now, b101 said:

Rickie playing very well - would be nice to see him stick in contention.

It's cool to see him with a very clear game plan this week, laying back on several holes off the tee and really just trying to play for par on some of them. He's picking his spots. I dunno if it'll work out for him, but it's fun seeing a player stick so firmly to his game plan. Guy's definitely not winging it out there. Disciplined player. 

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21 minutes ago, JetFan1983 said:

It's cool to see him with a very clear game plan this week, laying back on several holes off the tee and really just trying to play for par on some of them. He's picking his spots. I dunno if it'll work out for him, but it's fun seeing a player stick so firmly to his game plan. Guy's definitely not winging it out there. Disciplined player. 

Agreed - I think that will be the approach that wins it this week, whether Rickie or someone else. Just impossible to hold the greens if you aren't coming in from the fairway and as you can see with Rory and Rahm, it's hard to find some of those fairways!

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4 hours ago, NCGolfer said:

Would favor someone doing AimPoint.  ;-)

 

3 hours ago, iacas said:

Took the words out of my mouth. ;-)

 Guess that's why I had the reaction I did. Yeah, maybe they're hard to read, if you're not using the correct (or best) method. 

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1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

Have you played a lot of Donald Ross courses? Very few Donald Ross greens are just simple front to back design. Each green on the course tend to be unique. I've seen greens with what looks like a channel running through the center of the green. I've seen greens with a big mound running up the green vertically, bisecting the green. I've seen greens where I've had 3-4 breaks going across a green on a long putt. I've seen greens where the whole green was an upside down bowl. I've seen one where the false front was a false back and if your ball hit the back 1/4th of the green it's going down 30 yards from the green.

 

I live 100 feet from one and have played golf my whole life in Virginia and NC- so yes, I've played plenty with a lot of regularity. The one next to my house is most often sloped hard back to front, and full of subtle but not overt breaks in between. Others like Cape Fear have more of the design you're talking about. Either way, IMO, his greens (if they haven't been redone through the years) are just more subtle than most aggressively sloped (often gimmicky IMO) modern greens today. Either way, off topic a bit, we can agree to disagree otherwise

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13 minutes ago, b101 said:

Agreed - I think that will be the approach that wins it this week, whether Rickie or someone else. Just impossible to hold the greens if you aren't coming in from the fairway and as you can see with Rory and Rahm, it's hard to find some of those fairways!

Yea, Rickie seems to have realized this course is more tricked out than what they're used to during the normal Wells Fargo event, and therefore you have to take your medicine and lay back more than normal. That said though, Rory is kind of between a rock and a hard place in that he probably doesn't want to take his best club out of his hands on too many holes. But at the same time, he's really just playing crappy in general. He basically pro-chunked a 3 wood that went like 240 yards earlier today, has been terrible with his approaches, and his putting... well, we all know about how that's been going. 

3 minutes ago, Kieran123 said:

pga.com player down for anyone else?

It's working for me right now, but that site and player has been wonky the last two days. Pretty crappy site. I have to keep reloading my browser when it screws up. 

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