Jump to content
IGNORED

The Golf Ball "Problem": PGA Tour Players Hitting it Far is a Problem for All of Golf?


iacas
Note: This thread is 1193 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

The Golf Ball "Problem"  

174 members have voted

  1. 1. Does the distance modern PGA Tour pros hit the ball pose a problem to golf as a whole?

    • Yes
      40
    • No
      134
  2. 2. What is the main source of the "problem" above?

    • The golf ball goes too far, primarily.
      23
    • Several factors all contribute heavily.
      26
    • I voted "No" above, and I don't think there's really a "problem" right now.
      125


Recommended Posts

Just now, lastings said:

This is an argument that I just can’t get behind.   I have a hard time believing that John Daly or Fred Couples are more athletic today than they were in the ‘90s, but they’re both driving the ball quite a bit further. 

Gear effect must have some impact with the 460cc drivers, better shafts. Not sure to what degree though?.

I dont think John Daly was ever "athletic" :-P

Russ, from "sunny" Yorkshire = :-( 

In the bag: Driver: Ping G5 , Woods:Dunlop NZ9, 4 Hybrid: Tayormade Burner, 4-SW: Hippo Beast Bi-Metal , Wedges: Wilson 1200, Putter: Cleveland Smartsquare Blade, Ball: AD333

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

10 minutes ago, lastings said:

This is an argument that I just can’t get behind.   I have a hard time believing that John Daly or Fred Couples are more athletic today than they were in the ‘90s, but they’re both driving the ball quite a bit further. 

John Daly lost a lot of weight, and is not really hitting that much farther than at his peak when he was really out of shape and drinking heavily.

Fred Couples probably has better fitness relative to his age and tools than when he was 30, also, you don't lose huge distance at his age. Also his potential at 30 could have been 125mph if he had the same fitness level for his age and the tools he has now?

http://www.businessinsider.com/fred-couples-the-masters-driving-distance-2017-4

Screen-Shot-2014-12-26-at-12.16.58-PM.pn

Edited by Lihu

:ping:  :tmade:  :callaway:   :gamegolf:  :titleist:

TM White Smoke Big Fontana; Pro-V1
TM Rac 60 TT WS, MD2 56
Ping i20 irons U-4, CFS300
Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

7 minutes ago, lastings said:

This is an argument that I just can’t get behind.   I have a hard time believing that John Daly or Fred Couples are more athletic today than they were in the ‘90s, but they’re both driving the ball quite a bit further. 

According to the USGA's and R&A's 2015 distance report, most of the gains in driving distance were because of improved driver and ball technology. The first figure shows this best. When driver technology improved, pros gained about 10 yards of distance, and another 10 from the ball. Distance has remained relatively steady since then.

Link: http://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Equipment/distance-study.pdf

So yeah, they're driving the ball further mostly because of technology.

-- Daniel

In my bag: :callaway: Paradym :callaway: Epic Flash 3.5W (16 degrees)

:callaway: Rogue Pro 3-PW :edel: SMS Wedges - V-Grind (48, 54, 58):edel: Putter

 :aimpoint:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

5 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

According to the USGA's and R&A's 2015 distance report, most of the gains in driving distance were because of improved driver and ball technology. The first figure shows this best. When driver technology improved, pros gained about 10 yards of distance, and another 10 from the ball. Distance has remained relatively steady since then.

Link: http://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Equipment/distance-study.pdf

So yeah, they're driving the ball further mostly because of technology.

Not much has changed at all since 2002. Would you guess that any gains since then are from the athletes themselves then?

:ping:  :tmade:  :callaway:   :gamegolf:  :titleist:

TM White Smoke Big Fontana; Pro-V1
TM Rac 60 TT WS, MD2 56
Ping i20 irons U-4, CFS300
Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

17 minutes ago, Lihu said:

John Daly lost a lot of weight, and is not really hitting that much farther than at his peak when he was really out of shape and drinking heavily.

Fred Couples probably has better fitness relative to his age and tools than when he was 30, also, you don't lose huge distance at his age. Also his potential at 30 could have been 125mph if he had the same fitness level for his age and the tools he has now?

in '95 Daly averaged 289.0 off the tee, Couples averaged 276.3. 

Today couples is averaging 297.8, Daly 297.6.    

So, I'd have to agree with you that Coulples has seen much less decline, But, seeing that he was already a power hitter in the 90's, there is no amount of work he could do to gain 20 yards.  At his current age, I just don't even think it's reasonable to believe that any distance gains over that time can be attributed to fitness.   At best, he has been able to maintain his speed.   Whereas Daly has lost some. 

That actually lines up pretty well with the 20 yards that @DeadMan suggested could be attributed to ball and club.  

:tmade:  - SIM2 - Kuro Kage silver 60 shaft
:cobra:  - F9 3W, 15 degree - Fukijara Atmos white tour spec stiff flex shaft

:tmade: - M2 hybrid, 19 degree
:tmade: - GAPR 3 iron - 18degree
:mizuno: MP-H5 4-5 iron, MP-25 6-8 iron, MP-5 9-PW

Miura - 1957 series k-grind - 56 degree
:bettinardi: - 52 degree
:titleist: - Scotty Cameron Newport 2 - Putter

check out my swing here

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

7 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Not much has changed at all since 2002. Would you guess that any gains since then are from the athletes themselves then?

My theory is that we're seeing incremental gains due to players optimizing driver launch conditions with trackman and players focusing more on swing speed. But I have no solid data to back that up. I'm pretty confident in saying that most of the gains since 1990 are due to ball and driver technology.

-- Daniel

In my bag: :callaway: Paradym :callaway: Epic Flash 3.5W (16 degrees)

:callaway: Rogue Pro 3-PW :edel: SMS Wedges - V-Grind (48, 54, 58):edel: Putter

 :aimpoint:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

13 minutes ago, lastings said:

in '95 Daly averaged 289.0 off the tee, Couples averaged 276.3. 

Today couples is averaging 297.8, Daly 297.6.    

So, I'd have to agree with you that Coulples has seen much less decline, But, seeing that he was already a power hitter in the 90's, there is no amount of work he could do to gain 20 yards.  At his current age, I just don't even think it's reasonable to believe that any distance gains over that time can be attributed to fitness.   At best, he has been able to maintain his speed.   Whereas Daly has lost some. 

That actually lines up pretty well with the 20 yards that @DeadMan suggested could be attributed to ball and club.  

From 1990s to 2000, I agree that there is a significant upwards trend, then from 2002 to now there is very little.

So, if by modern technology rollback they mean to roll back to pre-1990, then that's about where they need to go to get in line with "the good old days"?

I don't think that the ball and club contributed the entire gains. Fitness, better launch monitoring and fitting technology were rapidly developing during that time as well.

 

10 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

My theory is that we're seeing incremental gains due to players optimizing driver launch conditions with trackman and players focusing more on swing speed. But I have no solid data to back that up. I'm pretty confident in saying that most of the gains since 1990 are due to ball and driver technology.

Trackman was officially established in 2003, and researchers were monitoring swings since the 1960s.

I'd agree that optimized fitting could have a large part to do with distance gains and possibly explains the decade long ramp from 1992 to 2002?

That and the entire fitness craze started around that time as well.

A lot of things happened in that time for us to place all the gains on the club and ball.

Edited by Lihu

:ping:  :tmade:  :callaway:   :gamegolf:  :titleist:

TM White Smoke Big Fontana; Pro-V1
TM Rac 60 TT WS, MD2 56
Ping i20 irons U-4, CFS300
Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

13 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Not much has changed at all since 2002.

If this is the case, and I don't really know if it is or isn't..    Than The suggestions of 20 yards attributed to ball and club, matches up pretty well again. 

Again, in '95 Daly was averaging 289, Couples averaging 276.  

in 2005, Daly averaged 310 (+21), Couples averaged 296 (+20)

 

 

:tmade:  - SIM2 - Kuro Kage silver 60 shaft
:cobra:  - F9 3W, 15 degree - Fukijara Atmos white tour spec stiff flex shaft

:tmade: - M2 hybrid, 19 degree
:tmade: - GAPR 3 iron - 18degree
:mizuno: MP-H5 4-5 iron, MP-25 6-8 iron, MP-5 9-PW

Miura - 1957 series k-grind - 56 degree
:bettinardi: - 52 degree
:titleist: - Scotty Cameron Newport 2 - Putter

check out my swing here

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

11 minutes ago, lastings said:

If this is the case, and I don't really know if it is or isn't..    Than The suggestions of 20 yards attributed to ball and club, matches up pretty well again. 

Again, in '95 Daly was averaging 289, Couples averaging 276.  

in 2005, Daly averaged 310 (+21), Couples averaged 296 (+20)

Not exclusively. . .

If it were only the ball and club there would be a step within one year rather than a decade long ramp up.

From 1990s to 2000, I agree that there is a significant upwards trend, then from 2002 to now there is very little.

So, if by modern technology rollback they mean to roll back to pre-1990, then that's about where they need to go to get in line with "the good old days"?

I don't think that the ball and club contributed the entire gains. Fitness, better launch monitoring and fitting technology were rapidly developing during that time as well.

Trackman was officially established in 2003, and researchers were monitoring swings since the 1960s and they probably started making breakthroughs in the technology for golf a decade or so before they established the company?

I'd agree that optimized fitting could have a large part to do with distance gains and possibly explains the decade long ramp from 1992 to 2002?

That and the entire fitness craze started around that time as well.

A lot of things happened in that time for us to place all the gains on the club and ball.

distance_history.thumb.png.e6f11a2fab147e5f540fa7814936c3fd.png

 

Edited by Lihu

:ping:  :tmade:  :callaway:   :gamegolf:  :titleist:

TM White Smoke Big Fontana; Pro-V1
TM Rac 60 TT WS, MD2 56
Ping i20 irons U-4, CFS300
Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I don't know...   That jump from 2000 to 2002 is pretty severe.  There's really nothing gradual about going from 273 to 286 in a 2 year span (PGA tour line).  Coincidentally, that is exactly when the new balls were put in play..  

:tmade:  - SIM2 - Kuro Kage silver 60 shaft
:cobra:  - F9 3W, 15 degree - Fukijara Atmos white tour spec stiff flex shaft

:tmade: - M2 hybrid, 19 degree
:tmade: - GAPR 3 iron - 18degree
:mizuno: MP-H5 4-5 iron, MP-25 6-8 iron, MP-5 9-PW

Miura - 1957 series k-grind - 56 degree
:bettinardi: - 52 degree
:titleist: - Scotty Cameron Newport 2 - Putter

check out my swing here

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

13 minutes ago, lastings said:

I don't know...   That jump from 2000 to 2002 is pretty severe.  There's really nothing gradual about going from 273 to 286 in a 2 year span (PGA tour line).  Coincidentally, that is exactly when the new balls were put in play..  

Big jump on the Champions Tour from 1995 to 1996 as well. I doubt that was the ball. Possibly other factors?

I think there are a lot more factors than just the ball and club technologies at play here.

The roughly 7 yards are from 2000 to 2001 might be the ball and 5 yards from 2003 to 2004 might be club technology, but the remaining 18 yards of gain are likely due to other causes?

Estimating that ball is 7 yards and club is 5 yards?

Edited by Lihu

:ping:  :tmade:  :callaway:   :gamegolf:  :titleist:

TM White Smoke Big Fontana; Pro-V1
TM Rac 60 TT WS, MD2 56
Ping i20 irons U-4, CFS300
Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I don't know for sure one way or another.   But there is a 13-yard jump from '94 to 2000 which just happens to coincide with the release of the Big Berta Wardbird, Great Big Bertha, and the Biggest Big Bertha.  (as well as their competitors like that taylormade bubbleshaft).    I recall those clubs being pretty serious game changers.  

:tmade:  - SIM2 - Kuro Kage silver 60 shaft
:cobra:  - F9 3W, 15 degree - Fukijara Atmos white tour spec stiff flex shaft

:tmade: - M2 hybrid, 19 degree
:tmade: - GAPR 3 iron - 18degree
:mizuno: MP-H5 4-5 iron, MP-25 6-8 iron, MP-5 9-PW

Miura - 1957 series k-grind - 56 degree
:bettinardi: - 52 degree
:titleist: - Scotty Cameron Newport 2 - Putter

check out my swing here

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

4 minutes ago, lastings said:

I don't know for sure one way or another.   But there is a 13-yard jump from '94 to 2000 which just happens to coincide with the release of the Big Berta Wardbird, Great Big Bertha, and the Biggest Big Bertha.  (as well as their competitors like that taylormade bubbleshaft).    I recall those clubs being pretty serious game changers.  

I don't see a 13 yard jump there in the PGA Tour data at all?

Note that the divisions are 5 yards apart. . .

Edited by Lihu

:ping:  :tmade:  :callaway:   :gamegolf:  :titleist:

TM White Smoke Big Fontana; Pro-V1
TM Rac 60 TT WS, MD2 56
Ping i20 irons U-4, CFS300
Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

1 minute ago, Lihu said:

I don't see a 13 yard jump there in the PGA Tour data at all?

'94 was at 260.  2000 is at 273.  

:tmade:  - SIM2 - Kuro Kage silver 60 shaft
:cobra:  - F9 3W, 15 degree - Fukijara Atmos white tour spec stiff flex shaft

:tmade: - M2 hybrid, 19 degree
:tmade: - GAPR 3 iron - 18degree
:mizuno: MP-H5 4-5 iron, MP-25 6-8 iron, MP-5 9-PW

Miura - 1957 series k-grind - 56 degree
:bettinardi: - 52 degree
:titleist: - Scotty Cameron Newport 2 - Putter

check out my swing here

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

4 minutes ago, lastings said:

'94 was at 260.  2000 is at 273.  

That's not a 1 year jump. If it were an introduction of a club that increased everyone's distance by 10 yards, I doubt it would take that long for PGA pros to adopt. 6 years is huge in a pros career.

Edited by Lihu

:ping:  :tmade:  :callaway:   :gamegolf:  :titleist:

TM White Smoke Big Fontana; Pro-V1
TM Rac 60 TT WS, MD2 56
Ping i20 irons U-4, CFS300
Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Just now, Lihu said:

That's not a 1 year jump. If it were an introduction of a club that increased everyone's distance by 13 yards, I doubt it would take that long for PGA pros to adopt. 6 years is huge in a pros career.

I didn't say it was a 1 year jump.   I just said it was a jump from '94 to 2000 which happened to coincide 3 separate large leaps forward in the Callaway Big Bertha series and their competitors.

:tmade:  - SIM2 - Kuro Kage silver 60 shaft
:cobra:  - F9 3W, 15 degree - Fukijara Atmos white tour spec stiff flex shaft

:tmade: - M2 hybrid, 19 degree
:tmade: - GAPR 3 iron - 18degree
:mizuno: MP-H5 4-5 iron, MP-25 6-8 iron, MP-5 9-PW

Miura - 1957 series k-grind - 56 degree
:bettinardi: - 52 degree
:titleist: - Scotty Cameron Newport 2 - Putter

check out my swing here

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

4 minutes ago, lastings said:

I didn't say it was a 1 year jump.   I just said it was a jump from '94 to 2000 which happened to coincide 3 separate large leaps forward in the Callaway Big Bertha series and their competitors.

First of all it went from around 262 to a hair over 272 or 10 to 11 yards, secondly those don't look like large leaps.

I'll grant that distances increased a little bit at a time during that era. From what I understand though, fitting technology also improved during that time frame. It might be that that contributed to the slower gains during those 6 years?

Regardless the club is not what is being cited as the problem, it's the ball, and I don't see more than 7 yards gain from the ball.

Edited by Lihu

:ping:  :tmade:  :callaway:   :gamegolf:  :titleist:

TM White Smoke Big Fontana; Pro-V1
TM Rac 60 TT WS, MD2 56
Ping i20 irons U-4, CFS300
Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

@Lihu: Look at the same report, page 16. Launch conditions have remained virtually the same since 2007, except for a reduction in spin. 4 years after Trackman started (and Trackman wasn't a huge thing on tour that quickly), players were already launching it close to ideally. My guess is that players were already close to optimal launch conditions Optimizing launch conditions that are already close to optimal is not going to give someone 20 yards. The other point is: how did players suddenly start optimizing their launch conditions without trackman or data like it? It didn't exist in 1990.

It is mostly the ball and driver technology. Figure 1 on that report makes it pretty obvious in my opinion. Other things probably contributed a little, but it's mostly the ball and driver.

The fact that you can sometimes hit a 3 wood from 1980 as far as your current hybrid is anecdotal and irrelevant to the overall point. You are going down a rabbit hole with zero evidence for it. To make a point that is incomprehensible.

-- Daniel

In my bag: :callaway: Paradym :callaway: Epic Flash 3.5W (16 degrees)

:callaway: Rogue Pro 3-PW :edel: SMS Wedges - V-Grind (48, 54, 58):edel: Putter

 :aimpoint:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Note: This thread is 1193 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    TourStriker PlaneMate
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-15%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope.
  • Posts

    • Day 85 - Played 9. Driver was solid, approach shots were pushed, chipping/pitching was better, putting was rough. 
    • Day 514, March 28, 2024 Quick ten minutes while waiting for the wife to come home for our trip.
    • Day 262: did a stack session. Worked on rehearsal swings during rest breaks. 
    • It's been a little more than a year since I can last remember hitting golf balls and today I just got my second cortisone injection in 11 months. I thought maybe shortly after the first injection I was going to be able to start playing again with therapy but the pain while doing my backswing past halfway just didn't subside like just lifting my hands up in the air did. So today the Orthopedic surgeon put more in the backside of the shoulder than before to address the tendon more. I'm going to try therapy for another 3 months and if I  can't swing the club without pain then I think surgery is going to be my next option.
    • I was just down visiting family in southern California and we played a couple rounds of golf. I hit my ball into the deep rough near some tree's and my cousin's husband offered me his Sim 2 Rescue Hybrid to try out. And I felt the same way, wow! I loved it, it also had a Pure DTX grip on it which I loved. As soon as I got back home, I ended up buying two used Calloway Rogue X hybrids, 3 and 5. So far I've only tested them out at the range, but I love them. They're much more forgiving than irons for me.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...