Low Handicappers in NET Tournaments

[NCGolfer]

7 minutes ago, David in FL said:

If you play in a tournament comprised of all scratch/+ golfers wouldn't you reasonably expect the same?  Where's the difference?

At the last couple clubs I've been at, scratch scores in the mid 60's are very rare.  Very.  Upper 60's sometimes.  Just my experience.

[iacas]

19 minutes ago, David in FL said:

If you play in a tournament comprised of all scratch/+ golfers wouldn't you reasonably expect the same?  Where's the difference?

The spread is higher the higher the handicap.

Look at the odds of shooting 5 better than your handicap index.

For a bogey golfer, it's 92:1. For a scratch golfer, it's 222:1 or higher. For a "better than 0.0" it's 502:1. 

[David in FL]

11 minutes ago, NCGolfer said:

At the last couple clubs I've been at, scratch scores in the mid 60's are very rare.  Very.  Upper 60's sometimes.  Just my experience.

In a full field event of scratch or + golfers, call it 60 players, you'd expect 20% to match or better their handicap.  Call it 10-15 players.  The same applies across all handicaps.

The bottom line is that, as he admits, the OP simply doesn't like to "lose" to someone with a higher gross score than he.  I imagine he could hang out around any   Web.com  tournament or PGA Tour Monday qualifier, and find any number of players willing to play him heads-up all day long.  

[iacas]

15 minutes ago, David in FL said:

In a full field event of scratch or + golfers, call it 60 players, you'd expect 20% to match or better their handicap.  Call it 10-15 players. The same applies across all handicaps.

The higher the handicap, the bigger the spread.

Yeah, 20% might be the same… but the higher handicappers have a wider bell curve.

[mvmac]

13 hours ago, NM Golf said:

This is a question to the Low handicappers out there, do you even bother playing in NET tournaments anymore?

Not an individual tournament but with a partner(s), sure. Even if it's another low handicapper we can compete if we play well but most likely won't win. I agree with you what you're saying. Most of the club tournaments I play in have a gross division so it's not a big deal.

One tournament where I've seen low handicappers have an advantage is a format where teams are divided into flights based on combined handicap. If you win that flight you play against the winners of the other flights in a horserace where strokes are greatly reduced. Most of the horse races I've seen or been a part of of are won by teams from the first two flights, the lower handicap flights.

[Groucho Valentine]

16 hours ago, David in FL said:

Against a field of 20 or more other scratch golfers you'd usually lose unless you have a really good day too.  It's not the handicap difference, it's that it's you against the rest of the field.  Against many players of the same general skill level, the likelihood remains that there will be someone playing better than you.  I can understand why you'd prefer to play a gross game against worse players than you though...  

The only real issue is match play.  Higher handicap players are more likely to have larger blowup holes, doubles, triples, and even worse.  While those strokes count in determining a handicap index, in match play, a blowup hole only results in the loss of a single hole.  Consequently, the high handicapper has a significant advantage in match play, which is why a lot of match play tournaments use a percentage of each player's handicap, as a method of mitigating some of that difference.

Oh no, id have a better chance against 20 scratch golfers in medal handicapped play than i would against 20 5 or 6 handicaps. Even if i have to give a stroke to them. Those odds are way better for me. If I'm only giving 4 or 5 to one player in match play, i can handle that most rounds. But I've lost handicap matches to mid single digit handicaps before. I shot 146 (+4) in the last club tournament i played where i finished second gross in champ flight, but near the bottom of the flight in net. Not sure how many were in the flight but it was at least 15.

Somebody in A flight supposedly shot 145 gross and won Net club champ in a landslide. WTF is that about? If thats true that dude probably shot 20 shots under his handicap for 36 holes. 

[David in FL]

9 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Oh no, id have a better chance against 20 scratch golfers in medal handicapped play than i would against 20 5 or 6 handicaps. Even if i have to give a stroke to them. Those odds are way better for me. If I'm only giving 4 or 5 to one player in match play, i can handle that most rounds. But I've lost handicap matches to mid single digit handicaps before. I shot 146 (+4) in the last club tournament i played where i finished second gross in champ flight, but near the bottom of the flight in net. Not sure how many were in the flight but it was at least 15.

Somebody in A flight supposedly shot 145 gross and won Net club champ in a landslide. WTF is that about? If thats true that dude probably shot 20 shots under his handicap for 36 holes. 

Sandbaggers exist, at every level. 

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Sandbaggers exist, at every level. 

It doesn't take sandbaggers.

Simple math man.

[DaveP043]

20 hours ago, Groucho Valentine said:

 I more or less have to shoot underpar to beat a 5-6-7 handicap in a net tournament. 

 

19 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

This is completely wrong.  Your average day will beat a 6-handicap's average day. Your reasonably poor day will beat his reasonably poor day.  His GREAT day will probably beat your great day.  

The problem is when you're playing a bunch of 6 and 12 and 20 handicaps.....

18 hours ago, Groucho Valentine said:

No it isnt wrong. With or 3 or 4 guys that may fly. But against fields of 20 or more? Id lose every time even with a good round.  

Please note, when I said you'd beat "a" 6-handicap, I mean a single guy.  You talked about a single guy in your own post.  The word "a" connotes one.  We agree, you're at a disadvantage against a group of higher handicap players.

52 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Somebody in A flight supposedly shot 145 gross and won Net club champ in a landslide. WTF is that about? If thats true that dude probably shot 20 shots under his handicap for 36 holes. 

I think it would be better if you actually knew the guy's handicap, instead of guessing.  I've typically played in our club's first net flight.  A few years ago I shot 146 as a 4 or 5 handicap, and I assure you that I'm not a sandbagger.  6 or 8 under net for 36 holes is rare, but its certainly within the realm of possibility.

[Groucho Valentine]

12 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

 

Please note, when I said you'd beat "a" 6-handicap, I mean a single guy.  You talked about a single guy in your own post.  The word "a" connotes one.  We agree, you're at a disadvantage against a group of higher handicap players.

I think it would be better if you actually knew the guy's handicap, instead of guessing.  I've typically played in our club's first net flight.  A few years ago I shot 146 as a 4 or 5 handicap, and I assure you that I'm not a sandbagger.  6 or 8 under net for 36 holes is rare, but its certainly within the realm of possibility.

Semantics. Doesn't change my point. 

Everyone in the Champ flight was at least an 8 handicap, so A flight we're talking about probably 10-15. So Its not that big of an assumption. 

Edited September 26, 2017 by Groucho Valentine

[iacas]

Just now, Groucho Valentine said:

Semantics. Doesn't change my point.

Yeah… that's exactly what semantics does there.

[Groucho Valentine]

Just now, iacas said:

Yeah… that's exactly what semantics does there.

Blah blah blah. He know what i was talking about. 

[DaveP043]

4 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Semantics. My doesn't change my point. 

Everyone in the Champ flight was at least an 8 handicap, so A flight we're talking about probably 10-15. So Its not that big of an assumption. 

This may be semantics again, but you said you played in the Championship Flight, and everyone in the Championship Flight was at least an 8 handicap.  Are you now claiming that you're an 8 handicap, instead of a +1?  Words do have meanings, I want to be sure I understand what you meant to say.  Perhaps you meant 8 or better, but it doesn't read that way.

Edited September 26, 2017 by DaveP043

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Blah blah blah. He know what i was talking about. 

Didn't know he was a mind-reader.

1 minute ago, DaveP043 said:

This may be semantics again, but you said you played in the Championship Flight, and everyone in the Championship Flight was at least an 8 handicap.  Are you now claiming that you're an 8 handicap, instead of a +1?  Words do have meanings, I want to be sure I understand what you meant to say.

Dave just read his mind like you did before when you knew what he was saying.

Duh.

[Groucho Valentine]

1 minute ago, DaveP043 said:

This may be semantics again, but you said you played in the Championship Flight, and everyone in the Championship Flight was at least an 8 handicap.  Are you now claiming that you're an 8 handicap, instead of a +1?  Words do have meanings, I want to be sure I understand what you meant to say.

WTF are you talking about? You do know how flights work, right? 

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, Groucho Valentine said:

WTF are you talking about? You do know how flights work, right? 

To me, "at least 8" means 8 or higher.  if you meant "at worst an 8 handicap", you could have written it that way and made it clearer.  And really, what chance did an 8 handicap have playing against a scratch or plus handicap like you.  Doesn't seem like those 7 and 8 handicaps had a fair chance, does it?

[NM Golf]

14 hours ago, David in FL said:

In a full field event of scratch or + golfers, call it 60 players, you'd expect 20% to match or better their handicap.  Call it 10-15 players.  The same applies across all handicaps.

The bottom line is that, as he admits, the OP simply doesn't like to "lose" to someone with a higher gross score than he.  I imagine he could hang out around any   Web.com  tournament or PGA Tour Monday qualifier, and find any number of players willing to play him heads-up all day long.  

Actually no it doesn't. The USGA Appendix E Score Frequency and Probability Table shows this to be untrue. You are a 6 handicap, the probability of you shooting a score 5 strokes below your handicap is nearly 5 times greater than mine. Your chance of shooting 6 strokes better than your handicap is nearly 7 times greater than mine. 

I actually did not say anything about not liking to lose to someone I beat gross, but I does suck. Try shooting 68 gross and getting beat by a 4 handicap who shot 72, two 6 handicaps that shot 73, and a 7 handicap that shot 72 and see how you like it. Shoot four under par and get smoked by half your flight. It happened to me last tournament.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2017 by NM Golf
Add chart

[Groucho Valentine]

Just now, DaveP043 said:

To me, "at least 8" means 8 or higher.  if you meant "at worst an 8 handicap", you could have written it that way and made it clearer.  And really, what chance did an 8 handicap have playing against a scratch or plus handicap like you.  Doesn't seem like those 7 and 8 handicaps had a fair chance, does it?

No, they dont have much of a chance for the overall club championship, which is a gross award. But they have to fill out flights somehow. There would have only been like 4 guys in the champ flight if they used a lower floor.