Low Handicappers in NET Tournaments

[NM Golf]

This is a question to the Low handicappers out there, do you even bother playing in NET tournaments anymore?

My association did away with gross prizes this year and went with net only. Their reasoning was handicaps level the playing field so everyone has a chance. We still have a gross club championship, which I won, but I can't even begin to compete with these guys in net tournaments. I am in a flight with guys that get 6 and sometimes 7 pops and here I am adding a stroke to my score, I get killed. Someone seems to shoot 65 or 66 in every tournament. I am pretty good but my 64s and 65s are unfortunately few and far between. Does anyone else have this issue?

I know handicaps are "supposed" to level the playing field, but I see a lot more 6 handicaps shooting 72 than I see scratch players shooting 66.

[p1n9183]

In 18th holes competitions, theres always one guy in his day that will score a lot of strokes under their handicap to shoot a 65, all of them with mid or high handicaps. Low handicapers can´t shoot scores like that on their best day so they will be bitten despite playing their best.

It´s the opposite on 72th holes competitions. Mid/High handicappers will shoot scores a lot higher than a low handicap bad day will score, so the advantage it´s on low handicap players.

This weekend i play a 36 holes net tournament. After the first day on the category under 12 handicap y was on 7th place after a horrible +8. Leader was at -4. On the second round i shoot a regular +3 and i almost won the tournament. Finish 3rd 3 strokes back. Leader shoot +12. I won the scratch category by 15 strokes, on the first day i was tied for the lead.
If the tournament will contnue for 2 more rounds i know i will win it by 5 strokes or more in the net competition. Just because of been more consistent than a 10 handicapper.   

 

[iacas]

http://www.usga.org/Handicapping/handicap-manual.html#!rule-14410

[NM Golf]

13 minutes ago, iacas said:

http://www.usga.org/Handicapping/handicap-manual.html#!rule-14410

This chart was my main argument with the board of my association when they proposed going all net. Basically I just don't play as many tournaments as I used to because of this. The good thing is when I play we still have a skins game and I can usually make my entry back with side bets. 

[Groucho Valentine]

No. Stopped doing that years ago. Don't even do money games with handicap anymore.  Its too difficult some of the reasons you explained. I more or less have to shoot underpar to beat a 5-6-7 handicap in a net tournament. No way. I shoot under par maybe 5-6 times a year, not every time i play. Most of my gross rounds are in the mid/low 70s.

[GolfLug]

This topic has been discussed before..

Man to man matchplay or strokeplay, the low HCP will have as much chance of winning. But in general I think in large group tourneys there are simply many MORE of the mid-high cappers. So yeah, mathematically this group will have larger chance of shooting the winning low differential.

Another way of thinking about it is if you have a net tourney in which there are 10 scratch and 10 7HCPs, the winner will have a 50% chance of being in the either group.   

That, or there are bunch of sandbaggers abound in the mid-high cap camp..

 

Edited September 25, 2017 by GolfLug

[DaveP043]

29 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

 I more or less have to shoot underpar to beat a 5-6-7 handicap in a net tournament. 

This is completely wrong.  Your average day will beat a 6-handicap's average day. Your reasonably poor day will beat his reasonably poor day.  His GREAT day will probably beat your great day.  

The problem is when you're playing a bunch of 6 and 12 and 20 handicaps, the odds become much greater that at least one of them will have a good day.  Because the variance is greater as the handicap increases (generally speaking of course)  a 20 shooting within 10% of his best will beat you shooting within 10% of your best.  Still, I play in handicap events at my club.  If I play well, I have a pretty good chance of being in the money.  I may not win, but I'll add to my shop credit.

[jsgolfer]

1 hour ago, NM Golf said:

This is a question to the Low handicappers out there, do you even bother playing in NET tournaments anymore?

My association did away with gross prizes this year and went with net only. Their reasoning was handicaps level the playing field so everyone has a chance. We still have a gross club championship, which I won, but I can't even begin to compete with these guys in net tournaments. I am in a flight with guys that get 6 and sometimes 7 pops and here I am adding a stroke to my score, I get killed. Someone seems to shoot 65 or 66 in every tournament. I am pretty good but my 64s and 65s are unfortunately few and far between. Does anyone else have this issue?

I know handicaps are "supposed" to level the playing field, but I see a lot more 6 handicaps shooting 72 than I see scratch players shooting 66.

I have yet to see net only tournaments, except when I play in our Couples events.  But I agree, as a lower handicap, it is hard to win any net prize in a large field of higher handicaps, as the range of scores for the higher handicaps fluctuate a lot more than the lower guys, especially the plus handicappers.  Even me as a 6 handicap, I've typically shoot somewhere between 74-79 most days and can throw in a 69 once in a while or a 79.  

In my normal weekend game, we play with no strokes, everything is gross only, unless there are side bets.

[Groucho Valentine]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

This is completely wrong.  Your average day will beat a 6-handicap's average day. Your reasonably poor day will beat his reasonably poor day.  His GREAT day will probably beat your great day.  

The problem is when you're playing a bunch of 6 and 12 and 20 handicaps, the odds become much greater that at least one of them will have a good day.  Because the variance is greater as the handicap increases (generally speaking of course)  a 20 shooting within 10% of his best will beat you shooting within 10% of your best.  Still, I play in handicap events at my club.  If I play well, I have a pretty good chance of being in the money.  I may not win, but I'll add to my shop credit.

No it isnt wrong. With or 3 or 4 guys that may fly. But against fields of 20 or more? Id lose every time even with a good round.  Myself and NM golf have to give strokes back to the field at our handicaps.  And like he said, some of those 5 or 6 handicaps inevitably shoot 72 or something.  So at that point I'm finished unless i have a really good day. Its why i dont do it anymore. 

[GolfLug]

19 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

No it isnt wrong. With or 3 or 4 guys that may fly. But against fields of 20 or more? Id lose every time even with a good round.  Myself and NM golf have to give strokes back to the field at our handicaps.  And like he said, some of those 5 or 6 handicaps inevitably shoot 72 or something.  So at that point I'm finished unless i have a really good day. Its why i dont do it anymore. 

Ha ha, sounds like you are saying the same thing he is. If there's more of them, your chances go down.

[mdl]

2 hours ago, GolfLug said:

This topic has been discussed before..

Man to man matchplay or strokeplay, the low HCP will have as much chance of winning. But in general I think in large group tourneys there are simply many MORE of the mid-high cappers. So yeah, mathematically this group will have larger chance of shooting the winning low differential.

Another way of thinking about it is if you have a net tourney in which there are 10 scratch and 10 7HCPs, the winner will have a 50% chance of being in the either group.   

That, or there are bunch of sandbaggers abound in the mid-high cap camp..

 

This isn't correct.  Just in terms of distributions.  Think about your scratch player posting scores from not too easy courses.  Over 10 rounds, that player is probably posting nearly every round with a gross score in the 71-76 range.  As a scratch player, that player's net scores for those rounds, had they been handicap tournament rounds, would all be 71-76.  Now take a 7 HCP.  That player's last 10 posted rounds, assume all at medium to medium-hard courses, are probably in the 74-84 range. 

Now say we have 10 of each in a tournament.  The best gross score from a scratch player comes in surprisingly good at 70 (par 72).  Now, only one of ten 7 HCPs needs to come within two strokes of what's normally the best out of 10 scores for each of them.  You can fiddle with exactly what the distributions are for both the scratch and 7 HCPs and get different exact probabilities.  I don't have time to do that.  But my point is that because of the increased variance in scores the lower your handicap is, in your hypothetical situation above, one of the scratch players will win on net less than 50% of the time.

[Groucho Valentine]

2 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

Ha ha, sounds like you are saying the same thing he is. If there's more of them, your chances go down.

Damn skippy. Way too far down for it to be fair to me. And its just annoying shooting a lower score than someone, but still losing. I wont have it! 

[David in FL]

11 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

No it isnt wrong. With or 3 or 4 guys that may fly. But against fields of 20 or more? Id lose every time even with a good round.  Myself and NM golf have to give strokes back to the field at our handicaps.  And like he said, some of those 5 or 6 handicaps inevitably shoot 72 or something.  So at that point I'm finished unless i have a really good day. Its why i dont do it anymore. 

Against a field of 20 or more other scratch golfers you'd usually lose unless you have a really good day too.  It's not the handicap difference, it's that it's you against the rest of the field.  Against many players of the same general skill level, the likelihood remains that there will be someone playing better than you.  I can understand why you'd prefer to play a gross game against worse players than you though...  

The only real issue is match play.  Higher handicap players are more likely to have larger blowup holes, doubles, triples, and even worse.  While those strokes count in determining a handicap index, in match play, a blowup hole only results in the loss of a single hole.  Consequently, the high handicapper has a significant advantage in match play, which is why a lot of match play tournaments use a percentage of each player's handicap, as a method of mitigating some of that difference.

[GolfLug]

Just now, Groucho Valentine said:

Damn skippy. Way too far down for it to be fair to me. And its just annoying shooting a lower score than someone, but still losing. I wont have it! 

I can completely empathize. My 7-12 HCPer 4 some gets hosed every time we play net team events at the club. The low/scratch don't ever bother entering. 

6 minutes ago, mdl said:

 

This isn't correct.  Just in terms of distributions.  Think about your scratch player posting scores from not too easy courses.  Over 10 rounds, that player is probably posting nearly every round with a gross score in the 71-76 range.  As a scratch player, that player's net scores for those rounds, had they been handicap tournament rounds, would all be 71-76.  Now take a 7 HCP.  That player's last 10 posted rounds, assume all at medium to medium-hard courses, are probably in the 74-84 range. 

Now say we have 10 of each in a tournament.  The best gross score from a scratch player comes in surprisingly good at 70 (par 72).  Now, only one of ten 7 HCPs needs to come within two strokes of what's normally the best out of 10 scores for each of them.  You can fiddle with exactly what the distributions are for both the scratch and 7 HCPs and get different exact probabilities.  I don't have time to do that.  But my point is that because of the increased variance in scores the lower your handicap is, in your hypothetical situation above, one of the scratch players will win on net less than 50% of the time.

Surprisingly good would be a 65/66 for one out of the 10 scratch. That would be a little harder to catch than a 70. 

[David in FL]

9 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

And its just annoying shooting a lower score than someone, but still losing. I wont have it! 

Ahhhhh, now we come to the real issue.  

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Groucho Valentine said:

And its just annoying shooting a lower score than someone, but still losing. I wont have it! 

Why? You could just welch on the bet like you did here.</burn>

[NCGolfer]

If you sign up for a net tournament, you know what you are getting.  There will, most likely, be someone around the mid to upper 60's.  Know that going in and you won't be disappointed with the result.

[David in FL]

38 minutes ago, NCGolfer said:

If you sign up for a net tournament, you know what you are getting.  There will, most likely, be someone around the mid to upper 60's.  Know that going in and you won't be disappointed with the result.

If you play in a tournament comprised of all scratch/+ golfers wouldn't you reasonably expect the same?  Where's the difference?