40 Putts per Round, Average of 96 (Dave Pelz)?

[billchao]

9 hours ago, phillyk said:

I saw a quick introduction to wedge week from Dave Pelz.  He started with saying the average score is 96 and then moved to saying the average golfer takes 40 putts per round.... WHAT! The AVERAGE is 40?! Where'd he get that number from?  That means some golfers are taking like 45 putts.  That seems ridiculous.  Then he said there are 19 wedges, 14 irons, 21 drivers or woods, and 2 random shots.  The first search result online is from March 2017, a golf digest article saying GameGolf calculated the average putts per round at 34 from its users.  That's more believable for putting.  I'm not sure where he got the stats on the other shots, but I'm pretty sure they're off a bit too.

We had another thread on this earlier this year I think and yea Pelz is married to the short game at this point so he over-sells its importance. Some of the things he claims range from flat out wrong to ridiculous.

I think if it wasn't for Mickelson, he'd fade into obscurity. I don't think Phil's career and short game prowess changes much if he never got hooked up with Pelz. 

[Lihu]

54 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

No one I've ever played with putts worse than me - even those who score higher. I average just under 40 per round (and that doesn't include those from off the green.) I can't imagine 40 is the average for even high cappers.

If you score above 96, then it's not just your putting that's bad. Long game is likely the main culprit.

 

Quote

Not correcting any off-the-green putts will also pad your GIR's stat.

Yeah, I'm more concerned with my swing and distance at this point. I get close, but not close enough at this point to score lower.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Lihu

[JonMA1]

51 minutes ago, Lihu said:

If you score above 96, then it's not just your putting that's bad. Long game is likely the main culprit.

or not....

You shouldn't assume. When we score above 96, EVERYTHING is the main culprit.

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, JonMA1 said:

or not....

You shouldn't assume. When we score above 96, EVERYTHING is the main culprit.

I don't, my plot looks similar as compared to a 10HC, and long game is currently my biggest weakness. Yes, I hit pretty far, but not accurate enough to score well. I've played much better in the past before, and my long game currently sucks.

I'm certainly not going to spend 80% of my time on short game skills, and not going to blame my mental game either. I suck because my physical game is bad.

It's up to you to base your decisions otherwise, but from my past experience and the fact that I'm in a similar situation as you are now I'd suspect long game over short.

Actually, the stats do kind of show this. . .

Edited October 10, 2017 by Lihu

[JonMA1]

6 hours ago, Lihu said:

It's up to you to base your decisions otherwise

Thank you. I prefer to base them on what I know, not what someone on the internet - who can't possibly know - posts.

6 hours ago, Lihu said:

and not going to blame my mental game either.

Seems off-topic.

6 hours ago, Lihu said:

my plot looks similar as compared to a 10HC

Of course it looks similar - you're not marking putts from off the green and it's messing everything up. You're putting isn't as bad and your long game is worse than GG indicates.

---

You should be a little more open-minded @Lihu and give some of us a little more credit to have the ability to recognize what OUR game needs (please note my LSW award).

[Lihu]

So,. . . I looked at my fringe putts over my last 5 rounds and found only 6 of them, or 1.25 per round. It happens a lot less than I felt. 40 putts is not unreasonable. I feel like many of my playing partners putt about that much as well, both are "feelings". I'll ask them how many actual putts they miss, and I'd guess close to 40. Pelz is probably right about that, but based upon my little experience he's wrong about the cure. It's a long game issue and not a short game one.

I feel like the biggest differentiator between scores in the 10 to 25 handicap range is their long games. The better end of that spectrum putt less because their long games give themselves a chance to putt less. Of course, the players below 10 don't putt that much. The good players end up one putting a lot more than the rest of us because their long games are better. However, even they 3 putt sometimes. No one is totally immune to bad putts.

My own game currently has a big draw or hook in it. I aim for the flag and often end up on the opposite end of the green or even fringe or bunker/rough. I tend to duff my chips or putts more often than I'd like, because I often don't setup and take a practice swing to gauge the lie well enough, and all the other excuses because I just don't practice those skills. I'm currently spending over 95% on my long game because that's where I'll save the strokes at this point. I don't expect to be making 40 putts forever though. I've been as low as 34 without practicing any more putting than I do now.

So, 40 putts is very possible for a lot more people than some of us seem to think, it's just that I think the solution is to improve their long games.

[ghalfaire]

Well here in the hills we have had a mild Summer and our greens are very undulating and tilted, in general. Since it is a mild summer the greens supervisor has kept them fast this year, about 11.5 on the meter.  Pretty easy to do 40 putts if you're having a bad putter day.  I've seen a few four putts this year and did one myself.

[Lihu]

7 minutes ago, ghalfaire said:

Well here in the hills we have had a mild Summer and our greens are very undulating and tilted, in general. Since it is a mild summer the greens supervisor has kept them fast this year, about 11.5 on the meter.  Pretty easy to do 40 putts if you're having a bad putter day.  I've seen a few four putts this year and did one myself.

This is the first time I’ve read anyone admit to a 4 putt. They do happen, but normally no one admits to them.

Many partners will say “that’s good” on a 4 foot side breaking downhill putt because they don’t want to watch another 3 putts when they miss it.

[ghalfaire]

2 minutes ago, Lihu said:

This is the first time I’ve read anyone admit to a 4 putt. They do happen, but normally no one admits to them.

Many partners will say “that’s good” on a 4 foot side breaking downhill putt because they don’t want to watch another 3 putts when they miss it.

I guess I am just overly honest. I would agree that 40 putt average sound high to me.  This summer I have been averaging between 34-35.  Fast greens and lots of wind this year as most years I do better than than and hope to return to the deserts of AZ this winter where greens tend to be slower and flatter.

[opie]

My last round I shot 86 and had 39 putts.  Granted I'm a little rusty from a long lay off but don't think I putted terribly.  I did have one 4 putt (from about 90') where I ran putt #2 6' past the hole then missed the come back.  Greens were big so I had a few GIR where I had a 50'+ putt.  Rolled it within 8' typically but missed the next one.  Voila.. 3 putts.  Been working on my putting a lot so hopefully drop that # closer to 30 next time :D

[colin007]

8 minutes ago, Lihu said:

This is the first time I’ve read anyone admit to a 4 putt. They do happen, but normally no one admits to them.

Many partners will say “that’s good” on a 4 foot side breaking downhill putt because they don’t want to watch another 3 putts when they miss it.

I've 4 putted for bogey on 2 occasions. Do the math. That hurts.

[Lihu]

4 minutes ago, ghalfaire said:

I guess I am just overly honest. I would agree that 40 putt average sound high to me.  This summer I have been averaging between 34-35.  Fast greens and lots of wind this year as most years I do better than than and hope to return to the deserts of AZ this winter where greens tend to be slower and flatter.

I admit that normally, I play the course with slower flatter greens. I've been challenging myself on the shorter 6000 yard course with undulating island greens and they were kind of fast this year. It didn't help that I trimmed a lot of trees off the tee either.

The ones that I really hate are the ones where if you putt too far you could end up in a ditch somewhere. If you're good, you can chip on and make it in 2 putts. If you're bad. . .

Just now, colin007 said:

I've 4 putted for bogey on 2 occasions. Do the math. That hurts.

Yeah, I hear you. . .what's funny is those kinds of 4 putts stick with you for a long time.

3 minutes ago, opie said:

My last round I shot 86 and had 39 putts.  Granted I'm a little rusty from a long lay off but don't think I putted terribly.  I did have one 4 putt (from about 90') where I ran putt #2 6' past the hole then missed the come back.  Greens were big so I had a few GIR where I had a 50'+ putt.  Rolled it within 8' typically but missed the next one.  Voila.. 3 putts.  Been working on my putting a lot so hopefully drop that # closer to 30 next time :D

What's funny is I know a lot of golfers who do this as well. Not everyone can get it close.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Lihu

[billchao]

3 hours ago, Lihu said:

I feel like the biggest differentiator between scores in the 10 to 25 handicap range is their long games. The better end of that spectrum putt less because their long games give themselves a chance to putt less. Of course, the players below 10 don't putt that much. The good players end up one putting a lot more than the rest of us because their long games are better.

You've got this backwards. Better players tend to hit more GIR which leaves them with longer first putts. Being farther from the hole increases the chance of three-putts. Players tend to have fewer putts when they're missing the greens and using their short game to get the ball closer to the hole for their first putt.

If a better player is hitting more greens and putting less often than you are, he's probably just better at putting than you. Golf skills tend to improve across the board; you're generally not going to find someone whose long game is scratch but putts like a 20.

If you're averaging 40 putts/round, I would look at your putting and short game. Maybe your distance control is off or you're leaving yourself too far from the hole on your pitches or something. There are probably some easy strokes to save that you're leaving on the course even if you only practice pitching and putting just a tiny bit.

[Lihu]

Game Golf data pervades though Golf Digest:

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/how-many-putts-does-the-average-golfer-make-new-data-shows-you-need-more-time-on-the-practice-greenand-the-range

Golfers use their putters 41.3% of the time. For a score of 96 that's 39.65 putts. So, Pelz's data is not too outlandish.

 

4 minutes ago, billchao said:

You've got this backwards. Better players tend to hit more GIR which leaves them with longer first putts. Being farther from the hole increases the chance of three-putts. Players tend to have fewer putts when they're missing the greens and using their short game to get the ball closer to the hole for their first putt.

If a better player is hitting more greens and putting less often than you are, he's probably just better at putting than you. Golf skills tend to improve across the board; you're generally not going to find someone whose long game is scratch but putts like a 20.

If you're averaging 40 putts/round, I would look at your putting and short game. Maybe your distance control is off or you're leaving yourself too far from the hole on your pitches or something. There are probably some easy strokes to save that you're leaving on the course even if you only practice pitching and putting just a tiny bit.

And even better golfers tend to hit it closer to the pin leaving them with even shorter putts. . .granted not your typical 10 HC.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Lihu

[NM Golf]

Years ago I used to play golf with a guy who spent a couple years on Tour and is now the golf coach at Texas A&M. One day after 3-putting for the third or fourth time, I said I was the worst putter on earth. He turned and looked at me and said you're not the worst putter you just hit it too far from the pin all the time. Brad Faxon couldn't 2-putt from where you hit it. Work on your iron game.

[lastings]

I would have to say..  strokes obviously can come from different places for different people, and you have to identify a glaring weakness before you revert to standard practice ratios.  

If your average is 96, you are probably a 20 handicap.   give or take.   

My putting woes have been well documented here, and I averaged 34.6 putts for the summer.   2.08 putts per GIR, 1.89 putts per non-gir..  
I am not a good putter.  but, I can putt respectably on a good day.  

My handicap is 10.9.   This means that vs. a 20 handicap that average s40 puts, I am gaining 5.5 of 9 strokes (61%) on the green alone.   
 

Again.  I am not a good putter.  If this person spends just a little practice time on the green, they should putt just as well as I do.  

If this person putted the same as me, they drop from a 20 handicap to a 14.5 handicap.  and I literally do nothing special on the green.  

So you tell me, where should this person spend their practice time?  

 

[billchao]

44 minutes ago, Lihu said:

And even better golfers tend to hit it closer to the pin leaving them with even shorter putts. . .granted not your typical 10 HC.

I think you missed my point. They're not hitting it closer, on average, from 150 yards than they are from 15 yards. Their long game does not "give them a chance to putt less" as you put it. If we are talking strictly putts/round, which by itself isn't a good stat at all, hitting more greens tends to increase putts because the first putt is farther from the hole.

Jordan Spieth was the best last year from 150-175 yards, averaging 22'5" from the hole. Make percentage for a PGA Tour player is about 15% from that distance. He averaged 6'8" from around the green, which is about a 60% make percentage. Which do you think is going to result in fewer putts, if Jordan hits 18 GIR or if he hits 18 nGIR?

Here's a good reference for putting: 

Like I said, 40 putts/round is probably not a long game issue. There's a glaring weakness somewhere, especially for a 10 hdcp. Even if you averaged 36 putts, which is pretty pedestrian, you'd be cutting 4 strokes from your game, and it's easier to improve putting and short game than the long game.

[Lihu]

8 minutes ago, billchao said:

I think you missed my point. They're not hitting it closer, on average, from 150 yards than they are from 15 yards. Their long game does not "give them a chance to putt less" as you put it. If we are talking strictly putts/round, which by itself isn't a good stat at all, hitting more greens tends to increase putts because the first putt is farther from the hole.

Jordan Spieth was the best last year from 150-175 yards, averaging 22'5" from the hole. Make percentage for a PGA Tour player is about 15% from that distance. He averaged 6'8" from around the green, which is about a 60% make percentage. Which do you think is going to result in fewer putts, if Jordan hits 18 GIR or if he hits 18 nGIR?

Here's a good reference for putting: 

Like I said, 40 putts/round is probably not a long game issue. There's a glaring weakness somewhere, especially for a 10 hdcp. Even if you averaged 36 putts, which is pretty pedestrian, you'd be cutting 4 strokes from your game, and it's easier to improve putting and short game than the long game.

I didn't miss your point at all, and agree that putting is potentially a glaring weakness for a 10HC who uses a putter 40 times per round and that's possibly lower hanging fruit than improving their long/approach game.

However, for the 25HC as compared to this 10HC, the long game is more than likely going to get him down to a 10HC even if he does use his putter 40 times per round.

Also, if someone lands a green 100 feet from the pin over an obstacle of some kind, then no matter how much that person practices putting he would not have a decent chance of making it in 2 putts.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Lihu