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phillyk

40 Putts per Round, Average of 96 (Dave Pelz)?

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1 hour ago, JonMA1 said:

As far as the concept of getting so good at my irons that I'll somehow be able to eliminate three putts... that sounds great for someone with that kind of potential.

You'll never get that good because it doesn't exist. That concept is not based on factual evidence.

Putting skills are relatively easy to develop compared to the long game. Figure out what's holding you back (from your description, speed) and work on it. You'll drop some easy strokes.

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10 hours ago, Lihu said:

They call it "fists of stone" :-D

 

 

Roberto Duran. "Manos de Piedra". Good for boxing. Bad for golf.

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17 hours ago, rehmwa said:

Seems like you are his target audience.  How does the rest of your game stack up against Pelz's assertions (I assume one would have to consider a hybrid a wood?  and I don't even know what a 'random' shot is)

  • 90 score...vs 91
  • 40 Putts...vs 37
  • 19 wedges...vs ??
  • 14 irons...vs ??
  • 21 drivers or woods...vs ??
  • 2 random shots...vs ??

Tough to answer since I gave up my 2i thru 6i for hybrids and the only wood I still carry is my driver.  I will count the hybrids as a wood and keep in mind this my best recollection for my most recent full round on my home course.

  • 96 score...vs 91
  • 40 Putts...vs 37
  • 19 wedges...vs 15 (most less than 20 yards, includes short pitches and chipping around the green)
  • 14 irons...vs 7 (again, I only carry the 7i thru 9i) 
  • 21 drivers or woods...vs 32 (I use one of my hybrids on all par 3's and 5's, and most 4's.)
  • 2 random shots...vs  a good scotch and cigar when I get home

I need work on every part of my game but lose most of my strokes due to poor pitches and chips, fat hybrids, and the occasional drive that slices into oblivion. 

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15 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Pelz said 96. Why are you using 90?

Maybe I missed something.

too late to fix it - good catch

15 minutes ago, NJpatbee said:

 

  • 2 random shots...vs  a good scotch

that's GOT to be a better interpretation of a 'random' shot than a guy like Pelz would intend.  I like your thinking

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22 hours ago, Fourputt said:

I have a problem with such statistics, because they don't always reflect actual distances.  Most mid 90's golfers I know do not get up and down 25% of the time.  But then the guys I play with are usually missing the greens by more than a few feet too.  It's a big difference if they are 5 feet off the green vs. 25 feet, and 25 feet or more is closer to what I usually see.  When my long game is adequate, my misses are still fairly close, 5-15 feet.  When it's off, then my misses are measured in yards rather than feet, and that makes even a reasonably good short game a lot more difficult.

I don't have a problem with statistics but like to know the source.  if from the USGA you're talking about golfers that post rounds and keep a handicap.  Those data are certainly different from "all golfers", many, if not most, who do not keep a handicap nor in general know or play by the rules.  If you ever play a weekend at a municipal course you won't have much problem in believing the average putts per round is 40.

Having said that the statistics of a group don't necessarily represent the attributes of an individual in the group.  But I'd admit that before being beset by various physical problems this last 18 months my putting performance matched fairly well with the 85-90 scoring golfer.  However the other statistics don't seem to resemble my game much.  BTW I think the putting diff is supposed to be 1.26 for that group.

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13 minutes ago, ghalfaire said:

I don't have a problem with statistics but like to know the source.  if from the USGA you're talking about golfers that post rounds and keep a handicap.  Those data are certainly different from "all golfers", many, if not most, who do not keep a handicap nor in general know or play by the rules.  If you ever play a weekend at a municipal course you won't have much problem in believing the average putts per round is 40.

I agree that the group being examined is important. I suspect that the group of golfers large enough to get an average of 40 putts per round will include many people who would not be interested in watching a show about improving their short game.

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Just to fool around, I played a putting stroke play against a friend on the course. He is a 15 index, im at 0. It doesn´t matter how many shots we took to put the ball on the green. We only count the putting strokes.

After the round we tied up on 30 putts. Im better putter than him and that day i was on fire. He played well also but he have the advantage of chipping a lot more balls into the green, so in average his first put distance was shorter than mine.

Conclusion... putts per round it´s not a good statistic to determinate putting skills. It´s way more accurate to use stroke gained putting.

 Pelz gain money with his short game´s books and lessons, it´s obvious that he will show us the stats that support that the short game it´s the most important aspect of the game to lower your score. 

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3 hours ago, Missouri Swede said:

I agree that the group being examined is important. I suspect that the group of golfers large enough to get an average of 40 putts per round will include many people who would not be interested in watching a show about improving their short game.

True enough.  But it is not unusual for someone to quote statistics to "make a point" even though they are misusing what the statistics represent. Especially if they are selling things.   Being an engineer I am sensitive to wanting to know sources of data or the raw data.  Or as we said in the trade, "statistics don't lie but liars use statistics".  Just so no one is insulted sometimes, maybe even often,  misuse is through ignorance or overly trusting statements because "it is supported by data".

Edited by ghalfaire
wrong word used

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Putting is a relatively simple motion. Average golfers have more touch than what Dave Pelz give us credit for.

@iacas I apologize in advance, this will seem a tiny bit off-topic, once you read it you'll see where I'm going. 

An average golfer who let's just say for argument shoots around 96. He plays a round of mini-golf with his kids. What do you think he shoots? (It's a rhetorical question). I'd be willing to bet no higher than 50

So Dave Pelz is saying that this average golfer is going to take 40 putts in a round of golf? I don't think so. Unless he is counting the potential for using putter from the fringe, I call bull$417. 

Erik, I think the tour average is ~30, IIRC.

Good ol' Dave is trying to tell us that a guy shooting 96 on average is losing 10 of his shots on the greens. I doubt that. Maybe 10 shots if you combine everything that is a short game shot + putting. But not just putting. I would guess perhaps 34 putts or so is closer to the true average. I think you might possibly lose 4-6 strokes from short game. But the other 15 strokes or so, Driving and approach shots, which is why they are SV4 skills.

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19 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

Good ol' Dave is trying to tell us that a guy shooting 96 on average is losing 10 of his shots on the greens. I doubt that. Maybe 10 shots if you combine everything that is a short game shot + putting. But not just putting. I would guess perhaps 34 putts or so is closer to the true average. I think you might possibly lose 4-6 strokes from short game. But the other 15 strokes or so, Driving and approach shots, which is why they are SV4 skills.

 

It wouldn't surprise me to be in the upper 30s, easily. 40 does sound a little bit high for an average. I play with a couple guys who typically shoot in the high 90s and low 100s, so higher than the 96 golfer mentioned in the thread-- but 40+ putts doesn't sound unusual or outlandish for them. One putts are rare, three putts are common, and four putts definitely happen, probably more often than you would think... especially if these guys are kept honest and actually putt out.

 

If you google "average 40 putts" or something along those lines, you'll find no shortage of people who profess to average 40 putts in a round, and their scores are lower than you might think (if you believe them).

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14 minutes ago, BaconNEggs said:

especially if these guys are kept honest and actually putt out.

If you google "average 40 putts" or something along those lines, you'll find no shortage of people who profess to average 40 putts in a round, and their scores are lower than you might think (if you believe them).

This is the key.

 

I think 36 is a good number of putts for someone making a good number greens. That means that 4 times they get 3 putts or something like that. 40 is not outrageous especially if you play reasonably competitive courses. It's not like your average green is only 40 feet wide.

I can also see the scratch golfers wondering "What the heck kind of games are these fools playing anyway?"

I agree with you that high 30s and even 40 is very possible.

Edited by Lihu

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Why isn't '40 putts' just a generalized way of saying that people with bad short games will 3 putt more than they 1 putt?

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2 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

Why isn't '40 putts' just a generalized way of saying that people with bad short games will 3 putt more than they 1 putt?

I think it's just easier to say "I average 40 putts." right before an instructor rolls his eyes and drags you to the putting green. . .

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57 minutes ago, Lihu said:

40 is not outrageous especially if you play reasonably competitive courses. It's not like your average green is only 40 feet wide.

Yup. If you were to go out to a muni that has a tough green and watch the average weekend hacker on that hole, I would bet you'd see a scary number of four putts... and I bet a lot of them would get recorded as three putts.

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20 minutes ago, BaconNEggs said:

Yup. If you were to go out to a muni that has a tough green and watch the average weekend hacker on that hole, I would bet you'd see a scary number of four putts... and I bet a lot of them would get recorded as three putts.

Or 2. :-D

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I totally suck at golf, yet my putts are usually about 16 per side. I also make three putts, but balanced out by a number of one's. Or the occasional chip in.

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2 hours ago, Lihu said:

Or 2. :-D

-whadda ya mean?  anything within three feet "would have gone in, other than....(pick a reason)", so therefore treat as having gone in.

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