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Lihu

Why do so many golfers think short game is holding them back?

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@Lihu, as a scientist, I appreciate that you understand the power of observation, and yet you really seem to rely heavily on your own personal experiences, too, and you should know better.

I consider experiences of myself and others, but don't give them much weight, and I likely have more of those than you do.

They don't deserve as much weight as you seem to give them. Surveys of thousands of golfers, for example, deserve more weight. What's written in magazines seen by millions gets some weight. Etc.

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2 minutes ago, iacas said:

@Lihu, as a scientist, I appreciate that you understand the power of observation, and yet you really seem to rely heavily on your own personal experiences, too, and you should know better.

I consider experiences of myself and others, but don't give them much weight, and I likely have more of those than you do.

They don't deserve as much weight as you seem to give them. Surveys of thousands of golfers, for example, deserve more weight. What's written in magazines seen by millions gets some weight. Etc.

Of course, I agree with your assessment. Plus, I think you have way more opportunity to meet folks who claim this, and I weigh your experience a lot more heavily than mine.

Yes, the fact that there are so many articles and on line publications about short game also really surprises me. I was thinking that it's possible that short game is one of the easier things to teach a golfer to do better with immediately recognizable results as compared to long game. So, more instructors are likely to want to endorse short game improvements so they can have more students. Possibly another bad assumption.

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On ‎11‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 8:28 AM, Groucho Valentine said:

Making bogey from the collar or something is pretty deflating. I hate it. I feel like i lose two shots to the field every time i do that. A short game is important scoring tool.  Because lets face it, most amateurs only hit 4 or 5 greens in regulation a round. And realistically, most of us wont improve on that. I only hit like around 9 on average. So you're spending most of your time recovering and putting. And i think alot of it is kind of philosophy more than mechanics, per sea. I think a good rule of thumb is if you miss greenside - get on the green with your next. Then take your chances with a putt, however long it might be.  Most of them outside 5 feet you'll miss. But you'll get up and down more often with a 20 foot putt than with another chip or pitch from the other side of the green. Keeps big numbers off the card, too.

GV.... You are  +1 yet you only hit 9 greens on average per round? Doesn't that mean you're getting up and down most every time? I too hit 9 greens a round give or take, and have for many years if memory serves, but my scores are usually 80-82. Almost never getting it up and in.. I once hit 16 greens at Ft. Ord, Bayonet (I think) and shot 74. If you think about it for a 10 hdcp 74 is a good score, but not for hitting 16 greens. I'm guessing if I give you 16 greens you'd post what 68 or 69??? Straighten out my understanding if you will. Thanks

Edited by gmc1950s

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13 minutes ago, gmc1950s said:

GV.... You are  +1 yet you only hit 9 greens on average per round? Doesn't that mean you're getting up and down most every time? I too hit 9 greens a round give or take, and have for many years if memory serves, but my scores are usually 80-82. Almost never getting it up and in.. I once hit 16 greens at Ft. Ord, Bayonet (I think) and shot 74. If you think about it for a 10 hdcp 74 is a good score, but not for hitting 16 greens. I'm guessing if I give you 16 greens you'd post what 68 or 69??? Straighten out my understanding if you will. Thanks

@Groucho Valentine is not an outlier.

gir-targets-golf.png

 

If I had to guess, the CR/slope on his courses are probably also harder than the courses you play?

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If any of you have taught Golf and think the short game is easy to teach you are the exception.     Teaching touch, which is what it is and the proper club to use and where to hit it is not that easy.  Does a person want to lob it on, then it has to be perfect, or bump and run, also perfect.    After watch skills and chunks for awhile as person has to realize this is not as easy as some seem to think, and those chunks and skulls were shots I saw during the Tour event in Mexico by Tour Pros.      Some learn easier than others and that is the way it is.     

I think we are beating this to death and redundancy is getting worn out.    So we all have different opinions, and that is okay.

 

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4 hours ago, joro said:

You are right, but if you do not think the Short Game is important you are wrong.     I never said it is everything, but it is a lot because without getting up and down you will not score and anyone who hits every Green in regs is not human.     It is not the whole game but a big part  of it and that is a fact.    And no I do not think the Earth if flat either.     If people want to beat me up on this site so be it, I can take criticism, but I do see some that cannot.    Maybe this site is not for me.

Ah stick around joro......Pelzy gets beat up on this site also. In my opinion you are in good company!!!

Edited by gmc1950s

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9 minutes ago, joro said:

If any of you have taught Golf and think the short game is easy to teach you are the exception.     Teaching touch, which is what it is and the proper club to use and where to hit it is not that easy.

I think it's pretty easy to teach.

Everyone has touch. Give a person a ball and have them toss it to you (throw it to you) at different distances and you'll find that most people are pretty good at it, right away.

What they lack is the mechanics to express their sense of touch. Tossing a ball to you uses mechanics they know. Pitching uses only slightly more complicated mechanics, but they have to learn them.

9 minutes ago, joro said:

Does a person want to lob it on, then it has to be perfect, or bump and run, also perfect.

Shot selection doesn't take too long… and you can choose the wrong shot and still get a good result.

9 minutes ago, joro said:

I think we are beating this to death and redundancy is getting worn out.    So we all have different opinions, and that is okay.

Sure it's okay to have a different opinion. But a lot of this is no longer really opinion. It's ventured well into the realm of fact.

1 minute ago, gmc1950s said:

Ah stick around joro......Pelzy gets beat up on this site also. In my opinion you are in good company!!!

Pelz gets beat up for good reason. :-)

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Well Iacas, you obviously have more to offer than most teachers.    I have only been doing for 50+ yrs.   and seen it all, and I thought I knew something about it and people.    But,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

As I said once before, this has been beaten to death.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Lihu said:

@Groucho Valentine is not an outlier.

gir-targets-golf.png

 

If I had to guess, the CR/slope on his courses are probably also harder than the courses you play?

I don't doubt that for a moment, but isn't that more to my point? I'm sure he plays from the tips and I play from regular tees, also my up and downs would be much easier...........but I'm not doing it much, but he seems to be doing it every time, and at much more difficult courses. It's the missing 9 greens and still under par that has me stumped. Still scratching my head!!

 

Edited by gmc1950s

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3 hours ago, Lihu said:

@Groucho Valentine is not an outlier.

gir-targets-golf.png

 

If I had to guess, the CR/slope on his courses are probably also harder than the courses you play?

I do not know how valid these stats are. I appear to be a bit low with only 10% GiR, while my fairways are at 67%. The most GIR in a single round are 5, but usually only 2 or 3. 

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39 minutes ago, gmc1950s said:

I don't doubt that for a moment, but isn't that more to my point? I'm sure he plays from the tips and I play from regular tees, also my up and downs would be much easier...........but I'm not doing it much, but he seems to be doing it every time, and at much more difficult courses. It's the missing 9 greens and still under par that has me stumped. Still scratching my head!!

He might only miss greens by an inch, that's still off. Some of those plus players are really good at scrambling. On average 60%…

Birdies on most par 5 and short par 4 are also common. 

 

32 minutes ago, Hacker James said:

I do not know how valid these stats are. I appear to be a bit low with only 10% GiR, while my fairways are at 67%. The most GIR in a single round are 5, but usually only 2 or 3. 

It looks about right for the courses in my area. Your short might also be pretty good.

Edited by Lihu

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19 minutes ago, Lihu said:

He might only miss greens by an inch, that's still off. Some of those plus players are really good at scrambling. On average 60%…

Birdies on most par 5 and short par 4 are also common. 

 

It looks about right for the courses in my area. Your short might also be pretty good.

sometimes it makes up for a multitude of sins, but I do not want to go there or we are right back where this thread started regarding importance/lack of  in  the short game.  As of late, I am struggling.

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11 minutes ago, Hacker James said:

sometimes it makes up for a multitude of sins, but I do not want to go there or we are right back where this thread started regarding importance/lack of  in  the short game.  As of late, I am struggling.

The other thing is your long game might be getting you close enough that your short game works better? GIR doesn't mean a lot if the GIR is 80 feet from the pin while being off is only 10.

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2 minutes ago, Lihu said:

The other thing is your long game might be getting you close enough that your short game works better? GIR doesn't mean a lot if the GIR is 80 feet from the pin while being off is only 10.

No,. my long game sux,,,Period.  

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1 hour ago, gmc1950s said:

I don't doubt that for a moment, but isn't that more to my point? I'm sure he plays from the tips and I play from regular tees, also my up and downs would be much easier...........but I'm not doing it much, but he seems to be doing it every time, and at much more difficult courses. It's the missing 9 greens and still under par that has me stumped. Still scratching my head!!

The GIR % is an average and a +1 is not scoring under par every round.

A person can hit 12 GIR while shooting under par and still average 50% GIR or shoot 82 with 9 GIR and still be a +1.

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Reading through these types of threads and the LSW, there is logic on both sides.

I'm a firm believer that GIR are king. So much so that developing a full iron swing - and particularly long irons - takes up 90% of my practice time. (There are other, off-topic reasons for deviating from the 65/20/15 ratio but that's the main one).

I still believe the full swing requires more practice time but because it's much harder to develop, not because it's 2 or 3 times more important than the other parts. Of course, if I knew more about this game I wouldn't be where I am.

As mentioned, last year putting was arguably a glaring weakness. I say that not because of what others teach, but because I'd miss too many tap ins. This year less so. I worked on it during the off season and was able to make some small gains.

So a couple questions....

1. If many of us are not accurately recognizing what our game needs, how do we make that determination? Not trying to use the "I'm different than everyone else" way of thinking, but every one of us has unique weaknesses and strengths, correct?

2. When looking long-term towards improvement, shouldn't we look more at incremental improvement throughout and not what will take us to scratch? In other words, improve all aspects evenly and not try to get to 12 GIR per round when we don't have a snowball's chance of getting there.

Maybe the 65/20/15 ratio is the answer for all but the worst glaring weaknesses and I'm over-thinking this.

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1 hour ago, JonMA1 said:

Reading through these types of threads and the LSW, there is logic on both sides.

I'm a firm believer that GIR are king. So much so that developing a full iron swing - and particularly long irons - takes up 90% of my practice time. (There are other, off-topic reasons for deviating from the 65/20/15 ratio but that's the main one).

I still believe the full swing requires more practice time but because it's much harder to develop, not because it's 2 or 3 times more important than the other parts. Of course, if I knew more about this game I wouldn't be where I am.

As mentioned, last year putting was arguably a glaring weakness. I say that not because of what others teach, but because I'd miss too many tap ins. This year less so. I worked on it during the off season and was able to make some small gains.

So a couple questions....

1. If many of us are not accurately recognizing what our game needs, how do we make that determination? Not trying to use the "I'm different than everyone else" way of thinking, but every one of us has unique weaknesses and strengths, correct?

2. When looking long-term towards improvement, shouldn't we look more at incremental improvement throughout and not what will take us to scratch? In other words, improve all aspects evenly and not try to get to 12 GIR per round when we don't have a snowball's chance of getting there.

Maybe the 65/20/15 ratio is the answer for all but the worst glaring weaknesses and I'm over-thinking this.

We're not that good at figuring out our weaknesses. That's why there are instructors.

Edited by Lihu

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I have to agree with @iacas when it comes to teaching short game, It's not hard. I have been teaching junior lessons in the summer for 12 years. We can get young kids, who have never picked up a golf club, fairly proficient at chipping and putting in a couple of days. 

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