Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Lihu

Why do so many golfers think short game is holding them back?

Note: This thread is 1073 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

166 posts / 11749 viewsLast Reply

Recommended Posts

@Lihu, as a scientist, I appreciate that you understand the power of observation, and yet you really seem to rely heavily on your own personal experiences, too, and you should know better.

I consider experiences of myself and others, but don't give them much weight, and I likely have more of those than you do.

They don't deserve as much weight as you seem to give them. Surveys of thousands of golfers, for example, deserve more weight. What's written in magazines seen by millions gets some weight. Etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

@Lihu, as a scientist, I appreciate that you understand the power of observation, and yet you really seem to rely heavily on your own personal experiences, too, and you should know better.

I consider experiences of myself and others, but don't give them much weight, and I likely have more of those than you do.

They don't deserve as much weight as you seem to give them. Surveys of thousands of golfers, for example, deserve more weight. What's written in magazines seen by millions gets some weight. Etc.

Of course, I agree with your assessment. Plus, I think you have way more opportunity to meet folks who claim this, and I weigh your experience a lot more heavily than mine.

Yes, the fact that there are so many articles and on line publications about short game also really surprises me. I was thinking that it's possible that short game is one of the easier things to teach a golfer to do better with immediately recognizable results as compared to long game. So, more instructors are likely to want to endorse short game improvements so they can have more students. Possibly another bad assumption.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

On ‎11‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 8:28 AM, Groucho Valentine said:

Making bogey from the collar or something is pretty deflating. I hate it. I feel like i lose two shots to the field every time i do that. A short game is important scoring tool.  Because lets face it, most amateurs only hit 4 or 5 greens in regulation a round. And realistically, most of us wont improve on that. I only hit like around 9 on average. So you're spending most of your time recovering and putting. And i think alot of it is kind of philosophy more than mechanics, per sea. I think a good rule of thumb is if you miss greenside - get on the green with your next. Then take your chances with a putt, however long it might be.  Most of them outside 5 feet you'll miss. But you'll get up and down more often with a 20 foot putt than with another chip or pitch from the other side of the green. Keeps big numbers off the card, too.

GV.... You are  +1 yet you only hit 9 greens on average per round? Doesn't that mean you're getting up and down most every time? I too hit 9 greens a round give or take, and have for many years if memory serves, but my scores are usually 80-82. Almost never getting it up and in.. I once hit 16 greens at Ft. Ord, Bayonet (I think) and shot 74. If you think about it for a 10 hdcp 74 is a good score, but not for hitting 16 greens. I'm guessing if I give you 16 greens you'd post what 68 or 69??? Straighten out my understanding if you will. Thanks

Edited by gmc1950s

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, gmc1950s said:

GV.... You are  +1 yet you only hit 9 greens on average per round? Doesn't that mean you're getting up and down most every time? I too hit 9 greens a round give or take, and have for many years if memory serves, but my scores are usually 80-82. Almost never getting it up and in.. I once hit 16 greens at Ft. Ord, Bayonet (I think) and shot 74. If you think about it for a 10 hdcp 74 is a good score, but not for hitting 16 greens. I'm guessing if I give you 16 greens you'd post what 68 or 69??? Straighten out my understanding if you will. Thanks

@Groucho Valentine is not an outlier.

gir-targets-golf.png

 

If I had to guess, the CR/slope on his courses are probably also harder than the courses you play?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

If any of you have taught Golf and think the short game is easy to teach you are the exception.     Teaching touch, which is what it is and the proper club to use and where to hit it is not that easy.  Does a person want to lob it on, then it has to be perfect, or bump and run, also perfect.    After watch skills and chunks for awhile as person has to realize this is not as easy as some seem to think, and those chunks and skulls were shots I saw during the Tour event in Mexico by Tour Pros.      Some learn easier than others and that is the way it is.     

I think we are beating this to death and redundancy is getting worn out.    So we all have different opinions, and that is okay.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, joro said:

You are right, but if you do not think the Short Game is important you are wrong.     I never said it is everything, but it is a lot because without getting up and down you will not score and anyone who hits every Green in regs is not human.     It is not the whole game but a big part  of it and that is a fact.    And no I do not think the Earth if flat either.     If people want to beat me up on this site so be it, I can take criticism, but I do see some that cannot.    Maybe this site is not for me.

Ah stick around joro......Pelzy gets beat up on this site also. In my opinion you are in good company!!!

Edited by gmc1950s

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, joro said:

If any of you have taught Golf and think the short game is easy to teach you are the exception.     Teaching touch, which is what it is and the proper club to use and where to hit it is not that easy.

I think it's pretty easy to teach.

Everyone has touch. Give a person a ball and have them toss it to you (throw it to you) at different distances and you'll find that most people are pretty good at it, right away.

What they lack is the mechanics to express their sense of touch. Tossing a ball to you uses mechanics they know. Pitching uses only slightly more complicated mechanics, but they have to learn them.

9 minutes ago, joro said:

Does a person want to lob it on, then it has to be perfect, or bump and run, also perfect.

Shot selection doesn't take too long… and you can choose the wrong shot and still get a good result.

9 minutes ago, joro said:

I think we are beating this to death and redundancy is getting worn out.    So we all have different opinions, and that is okay.

Sure it's okay to have a different opinion. But a lot of this is no longer really opinion. It's ventured well into the realm of fact.

1 minute ago, gmc1950s said:

Ah stick around joro......Pelzy gets beat up on this site also. In my opinion you are in good company!!!

Pelz gets beat up for good reason. :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Well Iacas, you obviously have more to offer than most teachers.    I have only been doing for 50+ yrs.   and seen it all, and I thought I knew something about it and people.    But,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

As I said once before, this has been beaten to death.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Lihu said:

@Groucho Valentine is not an outlier.

gir-targets-golf.png

 

If I had to guess, the CR/slope on his courses are probably also harder than the courses you play?

I don't doubt that for a moment, but isn't that more to my point? I'm sure he plays from the tips and I play from regular tees, also my up and downs would be much easier...........but I'm not doing it much, but he seems to be doing it every time, and at much more difficult courses. It's the missing 9 greens and still under par that has me stumped. Still scratching my head!!

 

Edited by gmc1950s

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Lihu said:

@Groucho Valentine is not an outlier.

gir-targets-golf.png

 

If I had to guess, the CR/slope on his courses are probably also harder than the courses you play?

I do not know how valid these stats are. I appear to be a bit low with only 10% GiR, while my fairways are at 67%. The most GIR in a single round are 5, but usually only 2 or 3. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

39 minutes ago, gmc1950s said:

I don't doubt that for a moment, but isn't that more to my point? I'm sure he plays from the tips and I play from regular tees, also my up and downs would be much easier...........but I'm not doing it much, but he seems to be doing it every time, and at much more difficult courses. It's the missing 9 greens and still under par that has me stumped. Still scratching my head!!

He might only miss greens by an inch, that's still off. Some of those plus players are really good at scrambling. On average 60%…

Birdies on most par 5 and short par 4 are also common. 

 

32 minutes ago, Hacker James said:

I do not know how valid these stats are. I appear to be a bit low with only 10% GiR, while my fairways are at 67%. The most GIR in a single round are 5, but usually only 2 or 3. 

It looks about right for the courses in my area. Your short might also be pretty good.

Edited by Lihu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

19 minutes ago, Lihu said:

He might only miss greens by an inch, that's still off. Some of those plus players are really good at scrambling. On average 60%…

Birdies on most par 5 and short par 4 are also common. 

 

It looks about right for the courses in my area. Your short might also be pretty good.

sometimes it makes up for a multitude of sins, but I do not want to go there or we are right back where this thread started regarding importance/lack of  in  the short game.  As of late, I am struggling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

11 minutes ago, Hacker James said:

sometimes it makes up for a multitude of sins, but I do not want to go there or we are right back where this thread started regarding importance/lack of  in  the short game.  As of late, I am struggling.

The other thing is your long game might be getting you close enough that your short game works better? GIR doesn't mean a lot if the GIR is 80 feet from the pin while being off is only 10.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

2 minutes ago, Lihu said:

The other thing is your long game might be getting you close enough that your short game works better? GIR doesn't mean a lot if the GIR is 80 feet from the pin while being off is only 10.

No,. my long game sux,,,Period.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

1 hour ago, gmc1950s said:

I don't doubt that for a moment, but isn't that more to my point? I'm sure he plays from the tips and I play from regular tees, also my up and downs would be much easier...........but I'm not doing it much, but he seems to be doing it every time, and at much more difficult courses. It's the missing 9 greens and still under par that has me stumped. Still scratching my head!!

The GIR % is an average and a +1 is not scoring under par every round.

A person can hit 12 GIR while shooting under par and still average 50% GIR or shoot 82 with 9 GIR and still be a +1.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Reading through these types of threads and the LSW, there is logic on both sides.

I'm a firm believer that GIR are king. So much so that developing a full iron swing - and particularly long irons - takes up 90% of my practice time. (There are other, off-topic reasons for deviating from the 65/20/15 ratio but that's the main one).

I still believe the full swing requires more practice time but because it's much harder to develop, not because it's 2 or 3 times more important than the other parts. Of course, if I knew more about this game I wouldn't be where I am.

As mentioned, last year putting was arguably a glaring weakness. I say that not because of what others teach, but because I'd miss too many tap ins. This year less so. I worked on it during the off season and was able to make some small gains.

So a couple questions....

1. If many of us are not accurately recognizing what our game needs, how do we make that determination? Not trying to use the "I'm different than everyone else" way of thinking, but every one of us has unique weaknesses and strengths, correct?

2. When looking long-term towards improvement, shouldn't we look more at incremental improvement throughout and not what will take us to scratch? In other words, improve all aspects evenly and not try to get to 12 GIR per round when we don't have a snowball's chance of getting there.

Maybe the 65/20/15 ratio is the answer for all but the worst glaring weaknesses and I'm over-thinking this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

1 hour ago, JonMA1 said:

Reading through these types of threads and the LSW, there is logic on both sides.

I'm a firm believer that GIR are king. So much so that developing a full iron swing - and particularly long irons - takes up 90% of my practice time. (There are other, off-topic reasons for deviating from the 65/20/15 ratio but that's the main one).

I still believe the full swing requires more practice time but because it's much harder to develop, not because it's 2 or 3 times more important than the other parts. Of course, if I knew more about this game I wouldn't be where I am.

As mentioned, last year putting was arguably a glaring weakness. I say that not because of what others teach, but because I'd miss too many tap ins. This year less so. I worked on it during the off season and was able to make some small gains.

So a couple questions....

1. If many of us are not accurately recognizing what our game needs, how do we make that determination? Not trying to use the "I'm different than everyone else" way of thinking, but every one of us has unique weaknesses and strengths, correct?

2. When looking long-term towards improvement, shouldn't we look more at incremental improvement throughout and not what will take us to scratch? In other words, improve all aspects evenly and not try to get to 12 GIR per round when we don't have a snowball's chance of getting there.

Maybe the 65/20/15 ratio is the answer for all but the worst glaring weaknesses and I'm over-thinking this.

We're not that good at figuring out our weaknesses. That's why there are instructors.

Edited by Lihu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I have to agree with @iacas when it comes to teaching short game, It's not hard. I have been teaching junior lessons in the summer for 12 years. We can get young kids, who have never picked up a golf club, fairly proficient at chipping and putting in a couple of days. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Note: This thread is 1073 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  



  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • Support TST Affiliates

    SuperSpeed
    TourStriker PlaneMate
    Golfer's Journal
    Whoop
    FlightScope Mevo
    Use the code "iacas" for 10% off Mevo
  • Posts

    • Yeah, I can see that. And you very well may be right. That's why this can be a difficult thing to do, especially with photos over the web. To my eye I thought I saw some almost greenish tint buried under that stain. That is very much a characteristic of birch. Birch is often used to imitate a lot of other woods. It's pours are almost as tight as maple, its patterns can be as pronounced as mahogany. It can do a good job blending in a lot of places for a ton less money. The one thing it can not do is imitate the hardness of maple or mahogany. @saevel25 could conceivably do a hardness test on it. Basically a ball bearing is pressed into the wood at a certain pressure and then based on the depth it sinks you'd look that up on a Janka scale. Hard Maple is about 1 and 1/2 times harder than birch. Mahogany is about 2 -1/2 times harder.  The other thing about birch is as the stain starts to wear often the green tint that is so often running though the wood will start to show. It won't be consistent many strands will have more green than others. This can be reduced or eliminated with dye before staining. A lot of folks won't go that extra mile. Having said that, I really think we are looking a pretty custom job here. These do not look like any factory built drawers I've ever seen. So, in reality its very hard to say what the craftsman did here.  So again, if you held a gun to my head I'd guess birch. But if you told me it turned out to be maple (especially soft maple, aka fast growing maple), mahogany, or possibly even a nut tree like pecan, I'd have to believe it.  I had to study a lot of cabinetry to make my cover story believable. 
    • Day 26: Rainy day again. Today I just spent 10 minutes on the feel for my new priority piece.
    • Day 7 Worked on the first 3 COVID Drills.  I'm beating these to death until they feel natural and I do not need to think about them.
    • lol. everything is sensitive these days. I put a line on the ball because it makes it easier to identify in the woods. "Yeah, that one's mine." I don't use it on the green because i can't line up the line very well. We all have our little methods of lining up putts.  
  • TST Blog Entries

  • Today's Birthdays

    1. Axel Gebwut
      Axel Gebwut
      (62 years old)
    2. chspeed
      chspeed
      (53 years old)

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...