Athletes in Every Sport are Better

[RussUK]

On ‎09‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 12:05 PM, iacas said:

I’m not talking about distance only.

Golfers are way better now than even two generations ago. Even if you only went by number of participants that’s obvious.

Thats a good point. Golf is more accessible now than it was 20-30 years ago, its not quite as "elitist" these days. Golfers are also having longer playing careers at the top level these days, whether thats down to modern day fitness, health, equipment or all the above, although im not sure i can see a time when an over 50's player wins on the PGA/European Tour's. I think that boat may have already sailed but there were murmurs of Langer being a wildcard in the last Ryder Cup.

[Zekez]

On 12/7/2017 at 3:00 PM, Papa Steve 55 said:

All you can do in fairness is judge an athlete vs his contemporaries. In the 60's many pro athletes had to have off season jobs to get by. Richie Heber was a grave digger....  Today they all work on their craft year round.

Though Bill Russell is still the NBA GOAT....

Not even close :)  Chamberlain is the GOAT!

[nevets88]

A hundred years ago, ooh, 1 revolution, 360. Now, 4, 1440. And they're trying out 5.

 

[DeadMan]

Ha, good bump. I was just thinking about this thread while watching the Olympics and the snowboard half pipe. Over and over, the announcers were saying that a gold medal run in 2010 wouldn't make the podium now, and that gold medal runs in 2002 wouldn't even qualify for the finals. Snowboard half pipe is a relatively new sport, but it's pretty astounding how fast it's moving.

[nevets88]

8 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

Ha, good bump. I was just thinking about this thread while watching the Olympics and the snowboard half pipe. Over and over, the announcers were saying that a gold medal run in 2010 wouldn't make the podium now, and that gold medal runs in 2002 wouldn't even qualify for the finals. Snowboard half pipe is a relatively new sport, but it's pretty astounding how fast it's moving.

I would love to see a film short where modern athletes are time machined to the past when their respective sports were just developing and then they showed their back in time peers their moves. That could be fun.

[HJJ003]

100M world record progression:

1891: 10.8 seconds (hand timed, therefore it is more likely it would have been around 11.1 FAT. 

Current World Record: 9.58s FAT

Yes athletes are getting better. 

[billchao]

My wife and I talked about this the other day. It's especially noticeable if you don't follow the sports in the Olympics because there's a gap between competition years.

Here's a pretty interesting read on gymnastics vaulting: https://www.quora.com/How-many-points-would-Mary-Lou-Rettons-perfect-10-vaults-at-the-1984-Olympics-receive-with-the-modern-scoring-system-and-competitive-level

[nevets88]

25 minutes ago, billchao said:

My wife and I talked about this the other day. It's especially noticeable if you don't follow the sports in the Olympics because there's a gap between competition years.

Here's a pretty interesting read on gymnastics vaulting: https://www.quora.com/How-many-points-would-Mary-Lou-Rettons-perfect-10-vaults-at-the-1984-Olympics-receive-with-the-modern-scoring-system-and-competitive-level

Yeah, exactly, I don't follow any of these sports in between the Olympics and the change between each successive Olympics is something.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, nevets88 said:

I would love to see a film short where modern athletes are time machined to the past when their respective sports were just developing and then they showed their back in time peers their moves. That could be fun.

I'm fairly certain I could have done pretty well in the 1913 U.S. Open if I could go back in time. Give me modern equipment and it would have likely been no contest.

The course was 6200 yards, par 73, fairly soft, and Ouimet won the playoff by shooting +12 over four rounds, with rounds of 77-74-74-79.

[dave s]

Agree that athletes of all sport are bigger, strong and faster than even a single generation ago.  They are also better trained due to the application of science-based training.  Plus, professional athletes now engage in year-round fitness training and practice regimens to insure top performance and to remain in 'game shape.'

In 2018, sports are as much a 'science' as they are talent.

[MuniGrit]

On 12/7/2017 at 12:00 PM, Papa Steve 55 said:

All you can do in fairness is judge an athlete vs his contemporaries. In the 60's many pro athletes had to have off season jobs to get by. Richie Heber was a grave digger....  Today they all work on their craft year round.

Though Bill Russell is still the NBA GOAT....

MJ in my opinion.

 

Athletes are better as the OP said. Such sports such as boxing they don't have the amount of people doing it as the heyday. Athletes specialize in one sport much earlier, fitness routines, diet and "SUPPLEMENTS AVAILABLE" legal or not, more access to the sports.

Edited February 28, 2018 by MuniGrit

[GrandStranded]

After going thru the Tiger vs Jack thread, a popular theme was how todays athletes are much better then the prior generation(s). How so exactly? Sure training and diet has improved, young athletes seem to concentrate on a specific sport more often, but are they really that much better then those before? Take BASKETBALL. Would the last Olympic team be better then the original Dream Team? Would the 80's Celtic and Laker teams, or Jordan's Bulls from the 90's be unable to compete in todays NBA? Forget the fact that fundamentally, todays players play a simplistic 3 pt shot based game. a 12 foot jumper is obsolete. Now BASEBALL. A pitcher goes 5-6 innings it is considered a quality start. Hitters today strike out at unseen before levels, and platooning/specialization is rampant. FOOTBALL. Quarterback play, with the exception of maybe 5-6 guys, is at the lowest level I can remember. Does anyone not think a Lawrence Taylor, Joe Montana or any other great player or team from the 80's or 90's wouldn't be great today? Hockey is watered down to the point of absurdity. I don't have the slightest doubt the 80's Edmonton Oilers (Gretsky, Messier, Paul Lowe, etc) would excel today. As GOLF fans, we assume todays players are leaps and bounds above those from the 80's and 90's. Why? It doesn't appear to be the case in other sports, in fact an argument can be made the levels of play have become worse. Is it because Golf is the only one where the EQUIPMENT used to play the game has advanced? What do you guys think?  

I'm sorry, and a little embarrassed I didn't double check my Title. I promise, I know how to spell BETTER.

[billchao]

@GrandStranded I feel like you're looking at things from the wrong perspective, which I'll elaborate on further later. First, let me begin by stating that it's my opinion that the best athletes of any generation are going to be among the best athletes of any generation.They just have that something that gives them an edge, whether it is talent, or work ethic, competitive fire, etc.

If Babe Ruth reincarnated and played MLB today, he would still be among the best players in baseball. He just wouldn't be absurdly ahead of his peers, as he was in his era. The reason behind that is exactly what this thread is about. Not only are other MLB hitters today better compared to the best hitters, but the pitchers are better, too.

3 hours ago, GrandStranded said:

A pitcher goes 5-6 innings it is considered a quality start. Hitters today strike out at unseen before levels, and platooning/specialization is rampant.

These things have more to do with how the game is changing than the quality of the players, and part of why the game is changing is because the players are better than they used to be.

3 hours ago, GrandStranded said:

A pitcher goes 5-6 innings it is considered a quality start.

Pitchers today generally only pitch twice through a lineup. By the third time (and actually, each time through the lineup), batting averages go up and balls get hit harder. This is all data that is recorded and being used by teams to make decisions. Because today's hitters are more dangerous, the last thing you want as a manager is to allow your team to give up more balls in play that are hit harder. So what do you do? You give your starter the hook and bring in a fresh guy.

This style of management affects how the starters approach a game, as well. Most of them aren't expecting to pitch complete games so they don't "save anything in the tank" for later innings. This allows them to throw more pitches at maximum effort, making them harder to hit when they're effective.

3 hours ago, GrandStranded said:

Hitters today strike out at unseen before levels

Again, part of how the game is changing. Increased rates of strikeouts is a byproduct of hitters trying to hit the ball harder and pitchers being harder to hit, but it's also because managers and general managers have changed how they look at a strikeout in the first place. They're not seen in the same negative light as they used to be. It's just an out. Aaron Judge struck out 208 times last season. He also hit 52 home runs and drove in 114 runs (and 171 OPS+). You don't bench a guy or pass on signing him for striking out a lot because you might miss out on what they produce when they actually hit the ball.

3 hours ago, GrandStranded said:

FOOTBALL. Quarterback play, with the exception of maybe 5-6 guys, is at the lowest level I can remember.

How much of this is the quality of quarterbacks being worse, or defensive players and schemes being better?

3 hours ago, GrandStranded said:

Hockey is watered down to the point of absurdity.

I feel like you don't even watch hockey. Everybody is better and higher-skilled at the NHL level. Absurdity is watching some of the old 80's games and seeing how the game was played back then compared to now.

3 hours ago, GrandStranded said:

As GOLF fans, we assume todays players are leaps and bounds above those from the 80's and 90's. Why? It doesn't appear to be the case in other sports, in fact an argument can be made the levels of play have become worse.

I've yet to see that argument credibly made. I've read about or heard many former professional athletes make statements about today's athletes in their respective sports are better than when they played.

And you're forgetting many other sports in your examples. Gymnastics. Figure skating. Swimming. Track and field. Etc.

3 hours ago, GrandStranded said:

Golf is the only one where the EQUIPMENT used to play the game has advanced

Most definitely not. Golf just happens to be one of the sports where the equipment has a larger affect on the game. Hockey is another. Sticks are significantly better at shooting the puck than they used to be.

[iacas]

A lot of what Bill said and more.

And @GrandStranded, it's really just a matter of numbers.

[GrandStranded]

To be fair, I can see the points you made regarding baseball all being valid as far as strategy. Analytics have definitely changed the game. Sometimes a they have gone a little too far with that though in my opinion.  Hockey is actually my favorite sport to watch. I had a partial season ticket package for the Rangers for almost 30 years. I miss the old days when each team always seemed to have its own identity. The Bruins were always a tough, ornery bunch. The Rangers and Canadiens played a fast, wide open style, etc. Oilers, beautiful to watch, like the Islanders dynasty, they could play any style. Always had a "policeman" like Dave Semenko, Clark Gillies, and a Dave Schultz to protect the star/instigator like Bobby Clarke. Great rivalries, I used to be able to name all 3 lines, and the top 4 defensemen on every team when they had 12 teams, even a few years after that. Now I can't name the top line on more then 3-4. Basketball, sorry, the players today are more void of fundamental skills then any group I've seen The clear out, or settle for a 3 pointer just doesn't get it done for me. Foul shooting? High school girls can beat most of them.. Football, sorry but The 85 Bears, Purple People Eaters, The Steel Curtain of the 70's.... those teams didn't have great schemes? Track and field is what it is. some have advanced way more then others. How long did it take to break Beamon's long jump record. Sorry, but I don't think everything newer is better. In life, and in sports.

[iacas]

Wow.

I couldn't disagree more.

Players are, on average, better today. In all sports.

You've offered nothing but opinion, too, so there's really nothing to respond to.

[GrandStranded]

Maybe I should throw myself to the mercy of the court. Seems I'm guilty of Nostalgia. LOL.

[GrandStranded]

Meanwhile as I say that I'm watching Epns 30 for 30 on the Valvano coached NC State championship season. Roy Williams and Coach K just said, "the games were better." "the players were better." I'm withdrawing my guilty plea!