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Athletes in Every Sport are Better


iacas
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12 minutes ago, GrandStranded said:

Seems I'm guilty of Nostalgia.

I was actually going to suggest this after your last post.

But hey, you'll always have '94, right? ;-)

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

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4 minutes ago, billchao said:

I was actually going to suggest this after your last post.

But hey, you'll always have '94, right? ;-)

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On 12/8/2017 at 8:17 AM, mcanadiens said:

I don't know if it still exists, but it was amusing to watch some of the old stuff on ESPN Classic when that was available locally. Even watching my favorites (hockey and football) from the 70s, they look like almost different sports.

True that! When you look at old hockey vids of some of the legends like Gordie Howe, Bobby Hull and Guy LaFleur, it looks like a slo-mo replay! The game is so much faster now! To look at it from the other direction, there are those who say that golf is a piece of cake now with all the technology built into the clubs, the video, ball flight monitors, computers, etc. What they fail to consider is that this is available to everybody! Winning on Tour, or anywhere, is just as tough, and maybe tougher, than it's ever been.

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I agree with OP. More and more athletes are afforded to develop thier craft in isolation from other aspects of life. Sports science is so advanced now that there are no secrets to creating super athletes. Just need to apply. It's obvious that the gap between the top athletes are narrowing. So yeah, as a side note, this is why domination in any sport these days is that much more impressive.

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9 hours ago, GrandStranded said:

Maybe I should throw myself to the mercy of the court. Seems I'm guilty of Nostalgia. LOL.

We all have nostalgia for our favorite players, teams, athletes from the past. That is perfectly fine. Here in MA, everyone wanted to be Bobby Orr!

But if athletes in sports weren't getting better, faster, stronger, it would look bad for the future of our species. Tiger got better because of Jack Nicklaus. Hockey players of today skate faster, play faster, shoot faster because of Bobby Orr and Wayne Gretsky.

Nolan Ryan inspired a generation of boys to learn to pitch faster the same way he was inspired by Sandy Koufax, Satchel Paige, etc. 

Same for all other sports. As a species, we should be improving in all areas. That is how evolution works.

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Just look at the footballers of yester year compared to today. Ftiness levels are way up on the top players from the 70's and 80's. Sprint speeds are quicker, better endurance.

There is much more emphasis on health and diet in todays game. "Most" players dont get hammered after each match like George Best.

Russ, from "sunny" Yorkshire = :-( 

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My feeling though, is that true greatness will carry over to at least the next generation. Do you think Pele would have been able to compete 20-25 years later? Franz Beckenbauer? In American football, do you think Antonio Brown (probably the best receiver today) is better then Jerry Rice? Is there any throw todays QB's make that Dan Marino couldn't? Is Justin Verlander a better pitcher then lets say Sandy Koufax was, in the 60's, or Roy Holliday was 20 years ago?

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1 hour ago, GrandStranded said:

My feeling though, is that true greatness will carry over to at least the next generation. Do you think Pele would have been able to compete 20-25 years later? Franz Beckenbauer? In American football, do you think Antonio Brown (probably the best receiver today) is better then Jerry Rice? Is there any throw todays QB's make that Dan Marino couldn't? Is Justin Verlander a better pitcher then lets say Sandy Koufax was, in the 60's, or Roy Holliday was 20 years ago?

You're repeating the same mistake for which you were called out on above. You can't compare the top 1 or 2 in a game. Those will always be pretty great. Those generational talents are way, way, way, WAY the heck out at the end of the tail.

The tail gets a LOT thicker though when you account for all of the players in the NFL, and there's no way an NFL team from the 1960s or even the 1980s would hold their own against an "equivalent" team from the modern day.

Athletes are better today than yesteryear. In every sport that's popular.

And Antonio Brown is a better receiver than Jerry Rice, yeah. Defenders are better, and he's putting up better numbers than Rice. One could easily make a case for AB > JR.

But that's not the topic here.

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50 minutes ago, iacas said:

You're repeating the same mistake for which you were called out on above. You can't compare the top 1 or 2 in a game. Those will always be pretty great. Those generational talents are way, way, way, WAY the heck out at the end of the tail.

The tail gets a LOT thicker though when you account for all of the players in the NFL, and there's no way an NFL team from the 1960s or even the 1980s would hold their own against an "equivalent" team from the modern day.

Athletes are better today than yesteryear. In every sport that's popular.

And Antonio Brown is a better receiver than Jerry Rice, yeah. Defenders are better, and he's putting up better numbers than Rice. One could easily make a case for AB > JR.

But that's not the topic here.

And he doesn't use illegal stick-um like Jerry did. :-P I swear that AB could blindfold himself and still catch a 60 yard pass.

Great point about "the rest" of the fields. Even Olympic fields are like that, sprinting as an example. The 100 meter fields are so deep now as compared to 20, 30 years ago. Usain Bolt has been above the rest, but guy number 10, 100 and 1000 are a lot closer. There are sprinters who miss the games whose times would have one a gold in the 70s.

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13 minutes ago, MuniGrit said:

Why can't we have discussions about various athletes? It's a pretty general topic. I love how you pick and choose what fits your narrative for any specific threads.

There's a reason for that. It's to keep discussions on topic and thus easier to follow.

This thread is about the general topic that athletes as a whole are better than they used to be. Feel free to start other threads to discuss specific athletes.

13 minutes ago, MuniGrit said:

But back to whatever the topic is.

Seriously, start another thread on whatever athlete you want.

I don't understand how people insinuate that we're somehow limiting their ability to discuss things when we tell them they're being off-topic, when they can just start another topic to discuss what they want.

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Bill

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I got involved in this thread thinking it was a friendly discussion about a topic to which there was no clear answer. But like another (Jack vs. Tiger) one here, I'm not finding that to be the case. I've quickly learned that it's better not to offer any opposing view, since there seems to be only one correct answer. It makes me wonder why there is even a need for topics like this, as the scope of what is considered relevant within a post seems to widen or narrow dependent on whether you agree with the person who posts the "correct" answer. From now on I'll limit my participation to threads relating to equipment reviews and discussions about our golf games, and how we try to improve them. This is an excellent site, but this is my last comment in any opinion based thread.

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15 minutes ago, GrandStranded said:

I got involved in this thread thinking it was a friendly discussion about a topic to which there was no clear answer. But like another (Jack vs. Tiger) one here, I'm not finding that to be the case. I've quickly learned that it's better not to offer any opposing view, since there seems to be only one correct answer. It makes me wonder why there is even a need for topics like this, as the scope of what is considered relevant within a post seems to widen or narrow dependent on whether you agree with the person who posts the "correct" answer. From now on I'll limit my participation to threads relating to equipment reviews and discussions about our golf games, and how we try to improve them. This is an excellent site, but this is my last comment in any opinion based thread.

That's on you, man. If you have an opinion and you can't back it up, it's nobody's fault but your own.

You made a statement which was rebutted, and instead of supporting your position, you're copping out. Cool. If that's what you want to do, that's fine, but don't make it seem like your opinions are unwelcome because they are "opposing."

I've both acknowledged and agreed with your idea that the generational greats would still be great in the modern era. But this thread is about athletics as a whole, and there's actual empirical data that supports the ideas behind it. Athletes are faster, higher, and stronger than previous generations. It's observable in sports that don't change conditions through the years (i.e. skating, gymnastics, running).

As mentioned before, it's because people learn from the greats before them. They inspire younger generations to pursue the sport. Large sums of money to be made drive people towards professional sports. Kids are better coached at far younger ages than ever before. The pool of potential athletes to draw from is larger. If 1 in 10,000,000 young golfers is a Jack Nicklaus, how many greats are you going to get when 40,000,000 kids play?

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Bill

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@GrandStranded, I don't think that's an accurate characterization at all.

Read and re-read what @billchao just said. Defend your position. I too agreed about exception, super-tail-end figures. But the discussion isn't about the all-time top five type players, they're about the "top" players. Among golf, the "top" players are the 150 or so on the PGA Tour, or the 120 or so on the LPGA Tour, and so on for other sports.

Athletes are better now. They're faster, stronger. They're better trained. They're taller. They learn their sports from younger ages and specialize starting at much earlier ages. Training techniques continue to advance. We learn more and more about the human body. Training. Limits. Skills that matter and give players an edge. Participation in sports is higher now. Etc.

Nothing supports the idea that players of any sport in the 50s had a vast set of players that were better than the players now. That could only be true of sports that have declined in popularity.

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I totally agree with the subject header, but I wonder if there's a ceiling? Just how many times can a human spin jumping off of skates? We're at 4. Is 5, 6 the max? Is there a theoretical limit to how fast 100 meters can be run? Is there a ceiling to how long a tour player can hit off the tee?

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47 minutes ago, nevets88 said:

I totally agree with the subject header, but I wonder if there's a ceiling?

There has to be. We are limited by what our bodies can do, and the laws of physics.

Bill

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On ‎3‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 6:16 PM, GrandStranded said:

Hockey is watered down to the point of absurdity. I don't have the slightest doubt the 80's Edmonton Oilers (Gretsky, Messier, Paul Lowe, etc) would excel today.

Gretzky would have of a fraction of the points he had if he had to face off today against a decent D1 NCAA goalie, let alone a top rate NHL goalie, just based on goaltending style alone. Guys were putting up 130, 140, 150 points a year routinely in the 80s when a lot of the goals were just sliding in on the ice because goalies were hesitant to go down. He had 215 points in one season! There's not a single player from the late 90s to present who has cracked 130 points.

Don't get me wrong, Gretzky was a once in a lifetime talent who had oodles of natural ability, his knack for putting the puck exactly where his teammates would be without seemingly needing to ever look was unbelievable, but he'd be facing off against defensemen who are stronger, faster, and better conditioned than their average counterpart in the 80s.

 

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20 minutes ago, BaconNEggs said:

Gretzky would have of a fraction of the points he had if he had to face off today against a decent D1 NCAA goalie, let alone a top rate NHL goalie, just based on goaltending style alone. Guys were putting up 130, 140, 150 points a year routinely in the 80s when a lot of the goals were just sliding in on the ice because goalies were hesitant to go down. He had 215 points in one season! There's not a single player from the late 90s to present who has cracked 130 points.

Don't get me wrong, Gretzky was a once in a lifetime talent who had oodles of natural ability, his knack for putting the puck exactly where his teammates would be without seemingly needing to ever look was unbelievable, but he'd be facing off against defensemen who are stronger, faster, and better conditioned than their average counterpart in the 80s.

 

Goalies went down low it the 1980s. It's the defense that has changed. Teams have developed this block the slot and block every shot.

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Again, the topic isn't about the athletes that are almost without peer, but about ALL of the athletes playing the game at the highest level.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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