New Rules for Video Call-Ins

[cutchemist42]

This thread just made me order the 2 rule books (and handicap manual) off of Golf Canadas website.

I figure it would be useful to read in the offseason. Out of my friends, I play the most proper (no 1 penalty drops for OOB/lost, actually hit provisionals) I still figure theres small details I dont know.

 

[Jack Watson]

In order for the rules to Be applied equally for the duration of the tournament (including final round) they would have to allow for review time after the final round closes that is equal to the time from the beginning of the first round and THEN announce the official result.

Id be fine with that.  

As it is now if it’s final round and my ball moves a bit while removing a loose impediment or if I may have grounded my. Club in a hazard or brushed two grains of sand on takeaway in a bunker why would I call it on myself?  

[Ty_Webb]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

I can't even name a player who barely made the cut that went on to win a tournament.

Now you can :D http://www.pga.com/pga-tours-revised-cut-policy-pays-off-in-huge-way-pettersson-in-canada not a common occurrence I'm sure

29 minutes ago, xrayvizhen said:

And regarding fairness: Adherence to the rules should be applied equally to every single participant, not just to those whose fame and/or position in the current standings warrant their exposure on TV. 

In an ideal world, everyone would adhere to the rules precisely and anyone who didn't would be penalized for it. That's not feasible. What do you think is closer to the ideal? Where everyone who is discovered to have breached the rules is penalized or one where some are not penalized because it was only discovered upon someone calling in?

Let's try this another way. What about innocent until proven guilty? The presumption should be that absent evidence to the contrary, every player is innocent of any breaches. It is only once evidence comes to light that a penalty would be applied. I am suggesting that that should continue to be the case. You are suggesting that some people even when proven guilty should still be allowed to continue under the presumption of innocence. Does that sound like a good thing to support?

On the face of it, you are saying that because some people are more scrutinized than others, they should be excused known breaches of the rules. Is that really a position that you're comfortable taking?

[cutchemist42]

This is kinda related....when it came to the Lexi ruling.....where does the official who's following the group actually stand when they are on the putting green? Im guessing they give the players space for the putts, but it might give too much distance to see improper ball placing?

[rehmwa]

20 hours ago, JetFan1983 said:

Add me to the list of people who thinks this change is terrible. It's been proven again and again that many on tour (not all), men or women, don't care one lick about the rules. They believe they are above them or that the rules are "too complicated." Many of them don't get that they are responsible for knowing them -- and that by knowing them they are protecting the field and the integrity of the tournament. Hell, in a lot of cases, they don't even think knowing the rules is important. To make matters even worse, they think that those who call-in are terrible human beings. They go after these people on social media. They want these people publicly shamed by their legions of followers. They are, in a lot of ways, sadistic and brutish with their influence, governed mostly by a warped perception of what justice and fairness is. These people are nothing more than well established morons with savant-like ball striking ability. Most of them have probably never once had an original thought in their entire lives.

Is this the other side's version of the 'Cheeto-eating Fat Jeff' tirade?

 

contrasted to the following concern that the other side is abused also (true as well) - just making sure we're seeing it's not the issue, it's just that this is usually expected on internet forums

13 hours ago, DeadMan said:

I really don't understand the vitriol and insults hurled at people who call in. It seems that they are generally:

 

 

Edited December 12, 2017 by rehmwa

[Lihu]

21 hours ago, iacas said:

You say this as if it's self evident.

Yet here we have a situation where a competitor breaches the rules, people know about it, and they're not penalized. The outcome of the event is inaccurate. And further yet, there's no penalty for "forgetting" to include a penalty or "not knowing" that you incurred one.

Call ins are fine, but the controversial thing is the 2 stroke penalty on the scorecard especially if the players didn't know that they were to be assessed penalties. The issue with call ins, is they have a different perspective of things that the player might or might not be aware.

You can only have one set of rules for penalizing an incorrect scorecard, so, I'd go with the "Tiger moved the ball, but didn't see it from his point of view" or "Hideki didn't intend to improve his lie" or "Lexi lazily misplaced the ball by and inch" side of things rather than the "Tiger knew he was moving the ball, but did it to improve his shot" or "Hideki knew the ball would roll exactly back into the divot so he stomped on it" or "Lexi intended to move the ball because she didn't like the original putting position".

I just can't believe that there is a pandemic of the top golfers in the world cheating. So, I'd opt more for what they are planning and that's to have officials review video footage of every televised player, and not allow call ins that can add a scorecard penalty of 2 strokes. They should assess the penalties deserved, but not the additional 2 stroke penalty for an incorrect scorecard especially if the players didn't know about it. I'd also give the players the benefit of the doubt that they didn't actually cheat on purpose.

I'd like to see them add video footage of every player in any event. The caddies or hired cameramen could take additional footage for every player, and the VROs should review every single video before closing out for the day so players don't end up signing incorrect scorecards.

If they didn't assess the additional 2 strokes for the incorrect scorecard, there would be very little controversy.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Lihu
to be

[iacas]

15 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

In order for the rules to Be applied equally for the duration of the tournament (including final round) they would have to allow for review time after the final round closes that is equal to the time from the beginning of the first round and THEN announce the official result.

Id be fine with that.

That's impractical. People have left. The results have been announced.

Impractical.

16 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

As it is now if it’s final round and my ball moves a bit while removing a loose impediment or if I may have grounded my. Club in a hazard or brushed two grains of sand on takeaway in a bunker why would I call it on myself?

And if you cap it at the end of each round, you're now more likely to be penalized for something that happens on the first hole than something that happens on the 18th hole.

So now you shrink it to capping it at the end of each hole. But then someone points out that you're more likely to be penalized for something you did off the tee than something you did on your last putt.

So you cap it at the end of each stroke.

Seriously.

Capping it (except for 34-1b stuff) at the end of the tournament is most practical. The tournament is still ongoing until that time.

9 minutes ago, cutchemist42 said:

This is kinda related....when it came to the Lexi ruling.....where does the official who's following the group actually stand when they are on the putting green?

Who says there's an official following the group?

Also, if there is, that official isn't there to jump in or watch everything with an eagle eye. In trying to do so, they could miss an infraction by the other players or caddies in the group, after all.

They're there to help. The players are obligated/responsible to follow the rules themselves.

2 minutes ago, Lihu said:

You can only have one set of rules for penalizing an incorrect scorecard, so, I'd go with the "Tiger moved the ball, but didn't see it from his point of view"

Generally speaking… if it's not visible to the naked eye it's not an infraction, @Lihu. Bad example.

2 minutes ago, Lihu said:

"Lexi lazily misplaced the ball by and inch" side of things

Lexi's penalty was definitely a penalty. Almost nobody argued that she should have been completely unpenalized.

2 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Hideki knew the ball would roll exactly back into the divot so he stomped on it"

You don't know the rules well enough here, @Lihu. It doesn't say it has to eventually roll back exactly into that location.

2 minutes ago, Lihu said:

I just can't believe that there is a pandemic of the top golfers in the world cheating.

Straw man. Nobody's saying that.

2 minutes ago, Lihu said:

I'd like to see them add video footage of every player in any event. The caddies or hired cameramen could take additional footage for every player, and the VROs should review every single video before closing out for the day so players don't end up signing incorrect scorecards.

 Yeah, that's practical. What caddie would film his player for possible infractions? C'mon, @Lihu.

[Lihu]

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

They're there to help. The players are obligated/responsible to follow the rules themselves.

I agree with this completely, and that's why I think that most infractions are not with intent and should not be assessed a 2 stroke penalty on an incorrect scorecard.

 

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

Generally speaking… if it's not visible to the naked eye it's not an infraction, @Lihu. Bad example.

Agree with this, but it was still controversial.

 

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

Lexi's penalty was definitely a penalty. Almost nobody argued that she should have been completely unpenalized.

Just not the 2 stroke on the incorrect scorecard. I think that was a bit much.

 

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

You don't know the rules well enough here, @Lihu. It doesn't say it has to eventually roll back exactly into that location.

The rules are intending to improve the lie or to care for the course. I'd go with care for the course after he sees the ball is not rolling into the divot, but obviously other people who possibly don't like Hideki see it otherwise.

 

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

Straw man. Nobody's saying that.

Indirectly, they are. That's why the penalty is 2 strokes for signing an incorrect card.

 

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

 Yeah, that's practical. What caddie would film his player for possible infractions? C'mon, @Lihu.

If there was a rule that forced caddies to monitor their players for rules infractions, they's have to do so. All they'd need to do is take video. If not the hired cameraman is the other option I put on the table.

[iacas]

10 minutes ago, Lihu said:

I agree with this completely, and that's why I think that most infractions are not with intent and should not be assessed a 2 stroke penalty on an incorrect scorecard.

So a hockey player who doesn't "intend" to high-stick an opponent in the face should get away without penalty? Or a basketball player who didn't intend to trip another should get away with it? A football player who didn't intend to commit a pass interference penalty shouldn't be penalized?

C'mon @Lihu. Stop typing whatever springs to your mind without any thought.

10 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Just not the 2 stroke on the incorrect scorecard. I think that was a bit much.

Read #3 here:

https://thesandtrap.com/forums/topic/96056-new-rules-for-video-call-ins/?do=findComment&comment=1351100

14 minutes ago, Lihu said:

The rules are intending to improve the lie or to care for the course. I'd go with care for the course after he sees the ball is not rolling into the divot, but obviously other people who possibly don't like Hideki see it otherwise.

He didn't see that the ball was not rolling into the divot, and you're completely wrong about the motivations of others.

14 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Indirectly, they are. That's why the penalty is 2 strokes for signing an incorrect card.

Bullshit. Nobody's saying there's a "pandemic" of players cheating.

14 minutes ago, Lihu said:

If there was a rule that forced caddies to monitor their players for rules infractions, they's have to do so. All they'd need to do is take video. If not the hired cameraman is the other option I put on the table.

@Lihu, if you find yourself going down the road of requiring caddies to film their players, you should think to yourself "hmmm, how did I get here?" and then stop typing.

[NM Golf]

I guess what I am having a hard time understanding is why people have an issue with being caught breaking the rules? How is this unfair? You break a rule you should be penalized.

I have heard the argument that it is unfair because only the guys at the top of the leaderboard being watched because they are the only ones on TV. I have an answer for that, if they are about to take home the trophy and $1 million plus paycheck shouldn't they be watched closely?

It comes down to the fact that this is going to look bad if someone is caught on TV making a rules infraction and it goes unpunished. This will be especially bad if its in a major. Do we put an asterisk next to a champion's name if he actually shouldn't have won the tournament due to an infraction not seen be the tournament committee? 

I think it also looks bad that this gives the appearance that the TOUR boys don't want to be held to the rules. Why are they celebrating? Why would you celebrate the fact it just became easier to break the rules? That's not what golf is all about IMHO.

[Lihu]

6 minutes ago, NM Golf said:

I guess what I am having a hard time understanding is why people have an issue with being caught breaking the rules? How is this unfair? You break a rule you should be penalized.

I have heard the argument that it is unfair because only the guys at the top of the leaderboard being watched because they are the only ones on TV. I have an answer for that, if they are about to take home the trophy and $1 million plus paycheck shouldn't they be watched closely?

It comes down to the fact that this is going to look bad if someone is caught on TV making a rules infraction and it goes unpunished. This will be especially bad if its in a major. Do we put an asterisk next to a champion's name if he actually shouldn't have won the tournament due to an infraction not seen be the tournament committee? 

I think it also looks bad that this gives the appearance that the TOUR boys don't want to be held to the rules. Why are they celebrating? Why would you celebrate the fact it just became easier to break the rules? That's not what golf is all about IMHO.

The only unfair part is the 2 stroke penalty for an incorrect scorecard. The player had the responsibility to insure his score to the best of his ability, which he did. Someone calls in and says the score is incorrect, should he be assessed that scorecard penalty even though he signed it in good faith?

[David in FL]

58 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

As it is now if it’s final round and my ball moves a bit while removing a loose impediment or if I may have grounded my. Club in a hazard or brushed two grains of sand on takeaway in a bunker why would I call it on myself?  

Hopefully for the same reason you would call it on yourself at any other time.  Because you're honest and respectful of the game and your fellow competitors. 

But, recognizing that there are those for whom it's not the case, it speaks volumes for the benefits of having as many watchful eyes as possible to help protect the rest of the field throughout the entire tournament.

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, Lihu said:

The only unfair part is the 2 stroke penalty for an incorrect scorecard. The player had the responsibility to insure his score to the best of his ability, which he did. Someone calls in and says the score is incorrect, should he be assessed that scorecard penalty even though he signed it in good faith?

The best of his ability wasn't good enough. It's a competition, and it's their responsibility with playing by and following and knowing the rules.

The player failed.

[Jack Watson]

@David in FL

All breaches must be penalized unless the breach evidence comes to light twenty seconds after the trophy has been handed out.  In that case penalizing an obvious breach is impractical.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

@David in FL

All breaches must be penalized unless the breach evidence comes to light twenty seconds after the trophy has been handed out.  In that case penalizing an obvious breach is impractical.

They had to draw the line somewhere. The close of the competition is the most practical.

[Hardluckster]

55 minutes ago, iacas said:

That's impractical. People have left. The results have been announced.

Impractical.

And if you cap it at the end of each round, you're now more likely to be penalized for something that happens on the first hole than something that happens on the 18th hole.

So now you shrink it to capping it at the end of each hole. But then someone points out that you're more likely to be penalized for something you did off the tee than something you did on your last putt.

So you cap it at the end of each stroke.

Seriously.

Capping it (except for 34-1b stuff) at the end of the tournament is most practical. The tournament is still ongoing until that time.

Who says there's an official following the group?

Also, if there is, that official isn't there to jump in or watch everything with an eagle eye. In trying to do so, they could miss an infraction by the other players or caddies in the group, after all.

They're there to help. The players are obligated/responsible to follow the rules themselves.

Generally speaking… if it's not visible to the naked eye it's not an infraction, @Lihu. Bad example.

Lexi's penalty was definitely a penalty. Almost nobody argued that she should have been completely unpenalized.

You don't know the rules well enough here, @Lihu. It doesn't say it has to eventually roll back exactly into that location.

Straw man. Nobody's saying that.

 Yeah, that's practical. What caddie would film his player for possible infractions? C'mon, @Lihu.

iacas, I completely agree with you.  You seem to be very well versed in the rules and traditions of this game. 

How about people just accept accountability for their actions and accept penalties that they are entitled to have?  That would eliminate all of the controversy.

[Lihu]

16 minutes ago, iacas said:

The best of his ability wasn't good enough. It's a competition, and it's their responsibility with playing by and following and knowing the rules.

The player failed.

I'm only saying this applies to cases where the player didn't know a rule was broken from her perspective, of course if the rule was broken on purpose it should be punished. Unfortunately, there is no way to determine the intent. Only the player knows.

So, a rule that makes sense is one where they assume the player was turning in a correct scorecard to the best of her knowledge in good faith, but she still gets the penalty for the infraction if found to be the case later on in the tournament.

My feeling is that golf is a game of integrity and trust, and we should trust that players are not cheating on purpose.

7 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

If we are ok with the idea that a player could win even if caught on video cheating then are we moving forward or backwards?

I just don’t believe they’d should get away with it just because it’s the final,round that’s all.  Carry on

No, they should not be allowed to get away with breaking a rule that is found after the fact. Just not punished for unknowingly signing an incorrect scorecard for the same offence.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Lihu

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Lihu said:

My feeling is that golf is a game of integrity and trust, and we should trust that players are not cheating on purpose.

Not knowing the rules is intentional. There are plenty of resources out there for them to know and learn the rules of the game that's made them millionaires. They choose not to learn them. That's intent right there.

Also, because you're now getting really far off topic, go here instead: