New Rules for Video Call-Ins

[Ty_Webb]

I think people need to stop thinking about this as "it's not fair that a guy sitting on his couch can influence the results by calling in a penalty". It's more like "this issue occurred and we know about it, what are we going to do?" It doesn't matter how they find out about it. It only matters that it occurred and there was a breach. Breaches should be penalized if you know about them. Having the rule book say "penalty for breach of rule: 2 strokes, unless the breach was discovered by call-in, in which case, there is no penalty" is a mockery.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, RussUK said:

@iacas, perfectly fair comments and yes, the spectator doesnt make the decision and like @rehmwastated, they will have a dedicated official (like the 4th official or video judge). I suppose its the nature of progress and whether people like it or not its going to happen. And like goal line tech in football, even the purists come round to it in them end.

Your "goal line tech" increases the accuracy of the competition. Disallowing evidence simply because of who saw it or recorded it decreases the accuracy of the competition.

This is a step backward. This isn't "the nature of progress."

4 minutes ago, RussUK said:

How common is spectators calling in? Would the number of calls increase once a dedicated video judge becomes standard? 

What do you mean "would the number of calls increase"? They aren't fielding those calls. I'm not sure what you're asking. If the video rules official doesn't see it - even if ten spectators on the course see it and have their own video, or millions at home see it on the telecast - they're basically going to ignore it.

1 minute ago, Ty_Webb said:

I think people need to stop thinking about this as "it's not fair that a guy sitting on his couch can influence the results by calling in a penalty". It's more like "this issue occurred and we know about it, what are we going to do?"

Yep.

2 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

It doesn't matter how they find out about it. It only matters that it occurred and there was a breach. Breaches should be penalized if you know about them. Having the rule book say "penalty for breach of rule: 2 strokes, unless the breach was discovered by call-in, in which case, there is no penalty" is a mockery.

Agreed.

As a Rules Official myself, I am seeking to get the best available information. Now, sources of information are no longer available to me, simply because enough pros whined about how unfair it all was or something.

[socialputts]

10 minutes ago, iacas said:

Ideally it is. But what if you have a player commit a breach and for whatever reason, people don't see it "live." The truth is the player still committed a breach. They should get away with it because the video rules official had to take a leak?

What's good about letting a KNOWN and SEEN infraction go un-penalized?

 

Yes, the truth is the player did commit the breach.  In my opinion if the breach isn't caught during the round, you miss your chance.  Again, if video review is so important, put the processes in place to cover for officials who are taking a leak.  IMO swift rule enforcement is important for the integrity of the competition.  If video review is so important, scrutinize all players throughout the round but when the scorecards are signed, review is over.  The goal should be to ensure everyone always signs an accurate card, not catch a mistake 2 hours after the round has been completed. 

There's nothing 'good' about letting a known or seen infraction go un-penalized, but how and when it's caught can be bad for the game, bad for the tournament or unfair to the competitors.

 

[RussUK]

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

Your "goal line tech" increases the accuracy of the competition. Disallowing evidence simply because of who saw it or recorded it decreases the accuracy of the competition.

This is a step backward. This isn't "the nature of progress."

 

Dont agree with the above being a step backwards but thats just the opiion of a fan who's team has lost the odd match to poor refeering and blind linesmen not seeing the ball clearly over the line

 

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

What do you mean "would the number of calls increase"? They aren't fielding those calls. I'm not sure what you're asking. If the video rules official doesn't see it - even if ten spectators on the course see it and have their own video, or millions at home see it on the telecast - they're basically going to ignore it.

Ahhh, i get you. The way i was thinking was along the lines of a viewer(s) calling in to say player has, lets say, grounded the club in a hazard and the official would have to go back through the footage, which in hindsight would be a s*hite idea!

Think i'll stick to shouting a blind linesmen.

Edited December 11, 2017 by RussUK

[iacas]

Just now, socialputts said:

In my opinion if the breach isn't caught during the round, you miss your chance.

Wow.

Just now, socialputts said:

If video review is so important, scrutinize all players throughout the round but when the scorecards are signed, review is over.

Even with this unfortunate change players can still be penalized after they've signed their cards. They can even still be DQed if they knowingly write the wrong (lower) score down.

Just now, socialputts said:

The goal should be to ensure everyone always signs an accurate card, not catch a mistake 2 hours after the round has been completed.

The goal should be that the competition is played under the Rules, and that breaches are penalized as breaches, not that players should get away with things because of a now growing list of exceptions, including "oh, 20 spectators recorded video of this guy repeatedly grounding his club in the water hazard and moving some rocks around, so we can't use that information. He gets away with it."

It should also not really matter when in the round someone commits a breach. Under your system, committing a breach as you walk off the 18th tee has a statute of limitations of about three minutes until they sign their card.

Just now, socialputts said:

There's nothing 'good' about letting a known or seen infraction go un-penalized, but how and when it's caught can be bad for the game, bad for the tournament or unfair to the competitors.

That makes no sense to me.

In no way can it be "bad." Players who do not commit a breach cannot be penalized. Thus, all penalties applied increase the accuracy of the competition, increase the fairness of the competition. A perfectly fair tournament is one in which everyone plays under the rules. Not where one breaks rules but because the wrong kind of observer observed it, they get away with it.

[Ty_Webb]

4 minutes ago, socialputts said:

Yes, the truth is the player did commit the breach.  In my opinion if the breach isn't caught during the round, you miss your chance.  Again, if video review is so important, put the processes in place to cover for officials who are taking a leak.  IMO swift rule enforcement is important for the integrity of the competition.  If video review is so important, scrutinize all players throughout the round but when the scorecards are signed, review is over.  The goal should be to ensure everyone always signs an accurate card, not catch a mistake 2 hours after the round has been completed. 

There's nothing 'good' about letting a known or seen infraction go un-penalized, but how and when it's caught can be bad for the game, bad for the tournament or unfair to the competitors.

 

I agree that finding out about a mistake substantially after it occurs is less than ideal. That's why when a player signs his scorecard he is telling everyone else in the tournament that that is what he scored and he is committed to it. If it subsequently turns out that score was wrong, that player has gained an advantage over the field in the meantime. Correcting that advantage is difficult and so the penalty used to be disqualification. Then some people decided that was too unfair and it should only be two strokes. Now apparently even two strokes is too much for them and it's going to be zero. So that advantage will no longer even be attempted to be unwound. 

Of course, as noted it is less than ideal to discover a breach a long time after. What is further from ideal is to do nothing at all about a breach after you've discovered it.

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Ty_Webb said:

Of course, as noted it is less than ideal to discover a breach a long time after. What is further from ideal is to do nothing at all about a breach after you've discovered it.

Yup. @Ty_Webb is killing it with simple, common-sense-style posts.

[JxQx]

It seems if they want to keep video reviews they should have all players shots recorded and have ref's on site reviewing them live. I don't really see an issue with that if they choose to do so but if they do, they can no longer call golf a self policing game. Also will be debatable if you can call it a game based around integrity.

[iacas]

1 minute ago, JxQx said:

It seems if they want to keep video reviews they should have all players shots recorded and have ref's on site reviewing them live.

Not possible. The expense would be HUGE.

1 minute ago, JxQx said:

I don't really see an issue with that if they choose to do so but if they do, they can no longer call golf a self policing game. Also will be debatable if you can call it a game based around integrity.

That's sad, but true.  

[DeadMan]

I think this rule is dumb, but I don't see it changing anything. This is a local rule that will apply to the major tours (and it looks like USGA and R&A competitions as well). A part of the local rule is that a rules official is going to be watching the broadcast to spot any potential infractions. I think it's pretty unlikely that there's going to be a breach of the rules not spotted by the rules official. So I don't get the big to-do, on both sides, about this. 

I will absolutely change my mind if means they completely ignore rules violations like Lexi's or Tiger's in the future.

[iacas]

1 minute ago, DeadMan said:

I think this rule is dumb, but I don't see it changing anything. This is a local rule that will apply to the major tours (and it looks like USGA and R&A competitions as well). A part of the local rule is that a rules official is going to be watching the broadcast to spot any potential infractions. I think it's pretty unlikely that there's going to be a breach of the rules not spotted by the rules official. So I don't get the big to-do, on both sides, about this. 

I agree that, best case, no rules infractions on the telecast are missed. If that is true, then there's no need for anyone to call in. It's a bit pie-in-the-sky for me, but maybe they can pull that off.

But even if you are okay with that, the elimination of the additional two-stroke penalty further rewards ignorance of the Rules.

[DeadMan]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

I agree that, best case, no rules infractions on the telecast are missed. If that is true, then there's no need for anyone to call in. It's a bit pie-in-the-sky for me, but maybe they can pull that off.

But even if you are okay with that, the elimination of the additional two-stroke penalty further rewards ignorance of the Rules.

Hypothetically, the extra two stroke penalty won't be needed for the major tours because all infractions will be caught before they sign their scorecards. Honestly, though, I don't really have a strong feeling about the extra 2 stroke penalty for signing incorrectly.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

Hypothetically, the extra two stroke penalty won't be needed for the major tours because all infractions will be caught before they sign their scorecards. Honestly, though, I don't really have a strong feeling about the extra 2 stroke penalty for signing incorrectly.

It affects more than just that, though. It removes any penalty for not knowing the rules at all - worst case, you get the original penalty. So if you commit a breach, but you're not really sure if it was or not, just sign for the score without any penalty strokes. Worst case… you get the penalty strokes you incurred and nothing else. No penalty for trying to get away with it, or for not knowing it.

 

[Golfingdad]

We've exhausted all of these arguments in the specific threads for each instance, so it would come as no surprise to many of you that I'm on board with these changes.  I find them to be very reasonable and think the game will be better off with them.

[Lihu]

2 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Great to see that the USGA and RA came to their senses!

 

1 hour ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Allowing spectators to call in penalties on participants after the fact is the real mockery. That crap needs to end. I don't know if the solution the governing bodies came up with is going to be any better, but it doesn't appear to be.  The local rule thing about players being unaware of infractions isn't going to be a big deal. Unless people think it will result in a scourge of players moving their balls fractions of an inch or brushing grains of sand in hazards during their backswings... 

Adding officials to watch TV footage to insure that no rules are broken makes a lot more sense than letting callers call in after the fact. If it's not caught in time, it shouldn't count towards penalizing the player for signing an incorrect scorecard.

The main reason they are doing this is to avoid controversies in the future. I agree that the pros should know the rules well, but the circumstances and their view might not show something that is obvious to someone watching HD from another view. They should not be penalized for something that they didn't know.

1 minute ago, Golfingdad said:

We've exhausted all of these arguments in the specific threads for each instance, so it would come as no surprise to many of you that I'm on board with these changes.  I find them to be very reasonable and think the game will be better off with them.

Agree.

[socialputts]

17 minutes ago, iacas said:

That makes no sense to me.

In no way can it be "bad." Players who do not commit a breach cannot be penalized. Thus, all penalties applied increase the accuracy of the competition, increase the fairness of the competition. A perfectly fair tournament is one in which everyone plays under the rules. Not where one breaks rules but because the wrong kind of observer observed it, they get away with it.

All penalties applied increase the accuracy of the scores, not the competition.  If you're tied for the lead after a round but find out after the round that you incurred 2, 2 stroke penalties on the first hole, the competition has been impacted.  If you were really four shots off the lead, you would have certainly played the rest of your round differently and so would other players.  As a spectator, this sucks too.  You paid your money or sat and watched 4 hours of competition only to realize that the players didn't really know where they stood the entire day.

It's not hard to imagine a golfer winning a tourney by one stroke, getting the check and the trophy only to have someone identify what could be a 2 stroke penalty as they watch the tourney on their DVR that night.  When, if ever, is the round and tourney considered 'done'?  

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing to let anyone get away with any rules violations.  The violations need to be recognized immediately and enforcement should be immediate.  We should strive to take the 'less than ideal' scenarios off the board.  If golf is missing things that the public is catching, they simply aren't doing enough to enforce their own rules.

[DeadMan]

13 minutes ago, iacas said:

It affects more than just that, though. It removes any penalty for not knowing the rules at all - worst case, you get the original penalty. So if you commit a breach, but you're not really sure if it was or not, just sign for the score without any penalty strokes. Worst case… you get the penalty strokes you incurred and nothing else. No penalty for trying to get away with it, or for not knowing it.

Wouldn't that scenario be a disqualification? You may have breached a rule, and you know about it, but you don't report it? That seems like something that should be an automatic DQ.

[Denny Bang Bang]

I agree that these guys/girls are professionals, making millions, they should know the rules inside and out and be accountable when they break them.  I can’t stand when they whine about this or that.

It doesn’t bother me that call-ins won’t be accepted anymore, and wouldn’t have bothered me if they continued to be accepted.  Perhaps to the officials who, understandably so, want as much information as possible... maybe add a 2nd set of official eyes to watch the broadcast (now that the call-ins are gone)?

As far as removing the penalty... I disagree.  It’s there to keep the players honest.  In golf, dishonesty should be penalized, and so should ignorance (i.e. a professional should know the rules inside out, ignorance would be their own fault).  I think it should be called the same day/round though, not a day/round or two later.  That whole Lexi thing... that was annoying to watch.  It took away the enjoyment of watching the final day for me.

 

...rant... as a person who used to enjoy watching a lot of sports a lot more than I do now, I will say I’m tired of watching multiple replays of every other play, or touchdown, or 2 yard run, or swing, or shot, or whatever.  For me personally, these “games” have been losing some of their excitement to watch due to disection of every tiny action.  (Imagine watching a football game where every single penalty was actually called/enforced... boring)