Tiger's Swing "Dip"

[Secretmove]

Mod Note: this topic was created from an off-topic discussion in the Predict Tiger's 2018 Season discussion, after about 31 or 32 posts (hence @billchao's plea in post #31 to get back on topic.

 

On 1/5/2018 at 11:07 AM, iacas said:

On 1/5/2018 at 10:13 AM, Secretmove said:

Tigers swing requires a lot of timing moves

??? No more so than almost every player on the PGA Tour. And less so than a good chunk. I don't know where you're getting that, but I disagree

I'm getting that from watching this video and othes.  He dips down 6 inches on a five iron, and stays down there, pulling off a massive timing move pulling up his left side to have an 8 inch level low spot.  Amazing, but I see no one on tour doing that much.  Lots of guys dip down to the ball, but non like Tiger.  His shoulders steepen from X to X-20, more than anyone on tour.  He puts massive twist and strain on his back maintaining posture with that speed with his angles. 

BTW, I will continue to make absurdist funny (to me and anyone who's ever read more than 3 books) statements as long as I live, cause its the right thing to do.  Do you really not get Monty Python?   Sad.   

Seriously, is it impossible to walk away from this absurd game with half a billion and do anything else?   Al Frankin made a switch.  Now he's back to comedy, but at least he gave it a shot.

[Veteran Golf Fan]

41 minutes ago, Secretmove said:

 

I'm getting that from watching this video and othes.  He dips down 6 inches on a five iron, and stays down there, pulling off a massive timing move pulling up his left side to have an 8 inch level low spot.  Amazing, but I see no one on tour doing that much.  Lots of guys dip down to the ball, but non like Tiger.  His shoulders steepen from X to X-20, more than anyone on tour.  He puts massive twist and strain on his back maintaining posture with that speed with his angles. 

BTW, I will continue to make absurdist funny (to me and anyone who's ever read more than 3 books) statements as long as I live, cause its the right thing to do.  Do you really not get Monty Python?   Sad.   

Seriously, is it impossible to walk away from this absurd game with half a billion and do anything else?   Al Frankin made a switch.  Now he's back to comedy, but at least he gave it a shot. 

 

That swing obviously is the old Tiger who dipped and got stuck ala Hank Haney.  Recent videos that he put out has him more erect and very little dip.  That is why he played so well at the Hero.

[mvmac]

48 minutes ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

That swing obviously is the old Tiger who dipped and got stuck ala Hank Haney.  Recent videos that he put out has him more erect and very little dip.  That is why he played so well at the Hero.

Actually this swing is during his time with Foley, like the description says, "5th hole final round 2014 Hero World Championship".

But I agree it's better now. He's always lowered and will always lower, it has more to do with the sequencing of when it happens. I don't think the "steep" shoulders and arms connected to the body move Foley was trying to work with him on was the right fit. It is for some players. Seems like Tiger is better with a bit "longer" and "freer" backswing.

[Veteran Golf Fan]

1 hour ago, mvmac said:

Actually this swing is during his time with Foley, like the description says, "5th hole final round 2014 Hero World Championship".

But I agree it's better now. He's always lowered and will always lower, it has more to do with the sequencing of when it happens. I don't think the "steep" shoulders and arms connected to the body move Foley was trying to work with him on was the right fit. It is for some players. Seems like Tiger is better with a bit "longer" and "freer" backswing.

What other tour player garners so much attention to every minute detail of his swing?  Quick answer:  Absolutely no one.

[iacas]

3 hours ago, Secretmove said:

I'm getting that from watching this video and othes.  He dips down 6 inches on a five iron, and stays down there, pulling off a massive timing move pulling up his left side to have an 8 inch level low spot.

a) Tiger's always dipped. He dipped in 2000 when he played the best golf of anyone, ever, to date.
b) That video is not his current swing. It's from 2014.

3 hours ago, Secretmove said:

BTW, I will continue to make absurdist funny (to me and anyone who's ever read more than 3 books) statements as long as I live, cause its the right thing to do.  Do you really not get Monty Python?   Sad.

I've watched my fair share of Monty Python. Doesn't mean you get to call it "pathetic" that Tiger isn't fostering 500 children or whatever.

24 minutes ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

What other tour player garners so much attention to every minute detail of his swing?  Quick answer:  Absolutely no one.

What's your point? Not being snippy, just asking. Cuz I agree, but… so what?

It doesn't mean what @mvmac wrote was wrong.

[Veteran Golf Fan]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

a) Tiger's always dipped. He dipped in 2000 when he played the best golf of anyone, ever, to date.
b) That video is not his current swing. It's from 2014.

I've watched my fair share of Monty Python. Doesn't mean you get to call it "pathetic" that Tiger isn't fostering 500 children or whatever.

What's your point? Not being snippy, just asking. Cuz I agree, but… so what?

It doesn't mean what @mvmac wrote was wrong.

Secretmove was so far off track, it is amazing he wasn't flagged for moderation.

[mvmac]

7 hours ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

What other tour player garners so much attention to every minute detail of his swing?  Quick answer:  Absolutely no one.

Not sure what this means as a response to what I posted.

You said the swing was a Haney swing, I was pointing out it's from 2014. Then I gave my take on his head lowering move.

[boogielicious]

16 hours ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

Secretmove was so far off track, it is amazing he wasn't flagged for moderation.

You only get warned for violating the forum rules, i.e. rude behavior, spamming etc. You don't get warned for having an opinion. We just ask folks to be polite.

We all love golf. That is why we joined the forum, to talk golf. A lot of threads get into debates because we love golf, we want to talk about it, we want to help others get better or we want to learn more ourselves. This topic is a good example because it is about one of the greatest golfers of all time that we have had the privilege of watching play.

At times things can get heated because we think no one may be understanding our position or misinformation appears or more often, we read emotion in a post that really is not there. This happens a lot. We read the post as snarky or sarcastic or sanctimonious when it really isn't. Then we respond emotionally. 

If you think someone's post is being like this, try re-reading it with the voice of Winnie the Poo in your head or some other funny voice. It will read totally different. Then you can be objective and respond objectively.

 

[Veteran Golf Fan]

On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 9:45 PM, mvmac said:

Not sure what this means as a response to what I posted.

You said the swing was a Haney swing, I was pointing out it's from 2014. Then I gave my take on his head lowering move.

Would you agree that the new swing has far less head lowering?  The videos seemed pretty conclusive to me.

[mvmac]

1 hour ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

Would you agree that the new swing has far less head lowering?  The videos seemed pretty conclusive to me.

I said I agree and I think the swing looks better. I wouldn't jump to conclusive yet because he's only played in one tournament and I honestly haven't done a side by side comparison from the '17 Hero to a swing during Foley.

Lots of good players lower their head on the start of the downswing. With Tiger's swing I don't think his head lowering should be high on the list of priorities.

 

[Veteran Golf Fan]

23 minutes ago, mvmac said:

I said I agree and I think the swing looks better. I wouldn't jump to conclusive yet because he's only played in one tournament and I honestly haven't done a side by side comparison from the '17 Hero to a swing during Foley.

Lots of good players lower their head on the start of the downswing. With Tiger's swing I don't think his head lowering should be high on the list of priorities.

 

Peter Kostis analyzed Tiger's swing for years showing it in slow motion.  He would point out that dipping the head leads to getting stuck coming down and resulted in blocks to the right primarily.  The new swing seems to have eliminated that fault to a great degree.   Standing more erect has also helped.

[iacas]

37 minutes ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

Peter Kostis analyzed Tiger's swing for years showing it in slow motion.  He would point out that dipping the head leads to getting stuck coming down and resulted in blocks to the right primarily.  The new swing seems to have eliminated that fault to a great degree.   Standing more erect has also helped.

In the opinion of many, Peter Kostis is a lousy instructor. @mvmac just showed you a bunch of PGA Tour winners dipping.

Brandel Chamblee and Johnny Miller would rail on Tiger dipping every time he hit a poor (often really only by his standards) shot, and ignore it when he hit good shots. And yet…

Good players go down so that they can explode upward.

That video, btw, is from 2010.

BTW, that's not to say that Tiger should dip as much as he wants, or that any method or way in which he "dips" is okay. Tiger tended to dip a bit differently at various times. When it got really extreme (perhaps in trying to create even more power at the bottom), it was not only a little excessive but it was done kind of improperly.

But blanket statements about Tiger dipping are almost always pretty inaccurate. Tiger dipped when he was playing well in 2000, he dipped when he was tearing it up as a junior, he dipped in 2007-2008 when he was playing well… etc.

[Veteran Golf Fan]

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

In the opinion of many, Peter Kostis is a lousy instructor. @mvmac just showed you a bunch of PGA Tour winners dipping.

Brandel Chamblee and Johnny Miller would rail on Tiger dipping every time he hit a poor (often really only by his standards) shot, and ignore it when he hit good shots. And yet…

Good players go down so that they can explode upward.

That video, btw, is from 2010.

BTW, that's not to say that Tiger should dip as much as he wants, or that any method or way in which he "dips" is okay. Tiger tended to dip a bit differently at various times. When it got really extreme (perhaps in trying to create even more power at the bottom), it was not only a little excessive but it was done kind of improperly.

But blanket statements about Tiger dipping are almost always pretty inaccurate. Tiger dipped when he was playing well in 2000, he dipped when he was tearing it up as a junior, he dipped in 2007-2008 when he was playing well… etc.

So you think there is no merit in analyzing the excessive head dipping resulting in getting stuck and blocking the ball.  Hey, it was all there in slow motion.  More than Kostis reached that conclusion.  4 instructors later, it looks like the problem is pretty much cured now.  Much straighter, good iron play with the better set up and swing.  Keep that up and he will win this year.

[iacas]

Just now, Veteran Golf Fan said:

So you think there is no merit in analyzing the excessive head dipping resulting in getting stuck and blocking the ball.  Hey, it was all there in slow motion. More than Kostis reached that conclusion. 4 instructors later, it looks like the problem is pretty much cured now.

Genuinely curious… do you read what people type before you respond?

• Tiger has always dipped.
• Many other good players dip.
• Tiger can occasionally dip a little too much or a little "incorrectly," but that doesn't mean he should ever strive to have "no dip."
• The commentators who said they never dipped are easily shown to be wrong.

I'm just saying the above. Including the first bullet point. Tiger has dipped as long as he's been on the world stage.

[Veteran Golf Fan]

10 minutes ago, iacas said:

Genuinely curious… do you read what people type before you respond?

• Tiger has always dipped.
• Many other good players dip.
• Tiger can occasionally dip a little too much or a little "incorrectly," but that doesn't mean he should ever strive to have "no dip."
• The commentators who said they never dipped are easily shown to be wrong.

I'm just saying the above. Including the first bullet point. Tiger has dipped as long as he's been on the world stage.

Genuinely concerned about your know it all attitude.   Do you even know what "excessive" means?  Do you know what "getting stuck" means from excessive dipping?  I didn't think so.  Keep on ranting.

Edited January 8, 2018 by iacas
removed - again - double quote

[Wally Fairway]

6 minutes ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

Genuinely concerned about your know it all attitude.   Do you even know what "excessive" means?  Do you know what "getting stuck" means from excessive dipping?  I didn't think so.  Keep on ranting.

 

I'm pretty sure anyone would take the results that Tiger had with that "excessive" dipping.

Are you making comments, or do you feel you have to not only have to be right in what you've said but have everyone else agree with you?
(not that there aren't others who also want to be right and have others agree)

Why is it so important to you not only that Tiger returns to dominate the tour, but you to question or challenge those who just don't see it (yet)?

Life is short - make a post & move on (and get out and play golf - unless your like those of us who are living where snow covers the course)
 

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

Genuinely concerned about your know it all attitude.   Do you even know what "excessive" means?  Do you know what "getting stuck" means from excessive dipping?  I didn't think so.  Keep on ranting.

This is getting old, fast.

25 minutes ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

So you think there is no merit in analyzing the excessive head dipping

I never said that.

You haven't defined "excessive," though I will add here that I did say:

40 minutes ago, iacas said:

BTW, that's not to say that Tiger should dip as much as he wants, or that any method or way in which he "dips" is okay. Tiger tended to dip a bit differently at various times. When it got really extreme (perhaps in trying to create even more power at the bottom), it was not only a little excessive but it was done kind of improperly.

That, combined with your previous response to @mvmac, had me genuinely wondering if you read what other people typed.

25 minutes ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

resulting in getting stuck and blocking the ball.

You can dip - even "excessively" and not get stuck. Heck, in a lot of ways, goat humping (the opposite of Tiger dipping in many ways) would lead to getting stuck. Dipping as Tiger did often provides more room for the right elbow.

9 minutes ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

Do you even know what "excessive" means?

Do you? It's not like we've defined it here, so my answer is actually that "nobody knows" because we've not defined it. More correctly, "nobody agrees," at any rate.

11 minutes ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

Do you know what "getting stuck" means from excessive dipping? I didn't think so. Keep on ranting.

Yeah, dude, you don't get to behave like that.

[Veteran Golf Fan]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

This is getting old, fast.

I never said that.

You haven't defined "excessive," though I will add here that I did say:

That, combined with your previous response to @mvmac, had me genuinely wondering if you read what other people typed.

You can dip - even "excessively" and not get stuck. Heck, in a lot of ways, goat humping (the opposite of Tiger dipping in many ways) would lead to getting stuck. Dipping as Tiger did often provides more room for the right elbow.

Do you? It's not like we've defined it here, so my answer is actually that "nobody knows" because we've not defined it. More correctly, "nobody agrees," at any rate.

Yeah, dude, you don't get to behave like that.

Allow me to define it since you said I haven't defined it.  Excessive - Going beyond the usual, necessary or proper limit or degree.  Yes, Tiger went way beyond the proper limit or degree when starting down and it led to inconsistency and numerous blocks due to getting stuck.  During the Haney years, he had trouble hitting the world with a driver because of "excessive" head dipping and the stuck position.   Kostis was right, by the way.