JB Holmes - "Undue Delay"?

[TheZoid]

Pace of play is based on the players and conditions...being able to adapt to the pace of play around you is a part of golf...its a dead horse of a debate. 

I've always thought the pace of play argument is a great example of how important we think we are....think about it....doctors office, restaurant, police officers clearing an accident, the lady from AT&T helping me switch my phone service, the oil change place, the cashier, ANYONE in front of you at a red light,  the credits at the beginning of a movie, etc.........all toooooooooooo slow....unless its you're the one on the other end... then I'm going as fast as I can to do it right...

Never liked the argument....

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

Pace of play is based on the players and conditions...being able to adapt to the pace of play around you is a part of golf...its a dead horse of a debate. 

I've always thought the pace of play argument is a great example of how important we think we are....think about it....doctors office, restaurant, police officers clearing an accident, the lady from AT&T helping me switch my phone service, the oil change place, the cashier, ANYONE in front of you at a red light,  the credits at the beginning of a movie, etc.........all toooooooooooo slow....unless its you're the one on the other end... then I'm going as fast as I can to do it right...

Never liked the argument....

Specifically to JB Holmes, you think what he did was "okay"? Perfectly valid within the rules and as a competitor re: his playing partners, etc.?

Cuz if so, you're gonna be in an incredibly small minority there.

[TheZoid]

1) Hello Mr. Barzeski, I've enjoyed your site here for years and years....I don't add much...just not much to say...but I really appreciate what you have here.

2) I'll call that an appeal to popularity fallacy for the argument...But...The rule is subjective...there is no specific time mentioned.  I've played individual stroke play tournaments on a off for 20 years, and I've learned to adapt to the pace of the group.  If you can't, you're setting yourself up for trouble.  In the 72nd hole of a PGA Tour event, million dollar payout, playing status on the line, a shot at what I know that player has worked their whole life for.......yeah....take a few minutes and hit the shot you want to....I'm in no hurry to get home...I like being out here.

While yes, that's my perspective on how I would handle being his playing partner....I do realize some may think "....this guy is trying to put me on ice...", I would argue that's the same person that complains about the McDonald's drive through being too slow....and should alter what they CAN control..... their expectations.

So, if I was J.B., I wouldn't worry about it....ADHD America will get distracted in a few days by a picture of Tiger's latest girlfriend, someone Chamblee pissed off, some comment Elk + a single barrel whiskey made on Twitter, or whatever and forget all about that 4 1/2 minutes......

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

1) Hello Mr. Barzeski, I've enjoyed your site here for years and years....I don't add much...just not much to say...but I really appreciate what you have here.

Unnecessary, but thank you.

Trust me, too, I don't think poorly of anyone because they have a different opinion on stuff. It's just golf. And what JB does has almost no effect whatsoever on my life, my family, etc.

2 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

2) I'll call that an appeal to popularity fallacy for the argument...

I disagree. The rule is interpreted a certain way. Rules exist for a lot of reasons, one of which is that the majority of the population think it's what's right.

2 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

But...The rule is subjective...there is no specific time mentioned.

It is subjective, but 0:40 is pretty commonly used around golf as a standard amount of time that you should use to hit a shot. When you're "on the clock" that's exactly how much time you get.

4:30 (or 270 seconds) is obviously almost SEVEN TIMES that number.

It's ridiculously long to play a shot.

2 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

I've played individual stroke play tournaments on a off for 20 years, and I've learned to adapt to the pace of the group. If you can't, you're setting yourself up for trouble. In the 72nd hole of a PGA Tour event, million dollar payout, playing status on the line, a shot at what I know that player has worked their whole life for.......yeah....take a few minutes and hit the shot you want to....I'm in no hurry to get home...I like being out here.

Again, you're in the minority, and I agree that JB Holmes violated the Rules of Golf.

You don't get to take as long as you want to play. It's discourteous to your fellow competitors and, again, against the rules.

It's great that you're laid back, but JB was discourteous to his fellow competitors, who are ALSO competing for the prize and the tournament.

2 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

While yes, that's my perspective on how I would handle being his playing partner....I do realize some may think "....this guy is trying to put me on ice...", I would argue that's the same person that complains about the McDonald's drive through being too slow....and should alter what they CAN control..... their expectations.

It's not just about expectations. It's about the Rules of Golf, and I'm in the boat that JB broke them.

2 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

So, if I was J.B., I wouldn't worry about it....ADHD America will get distracted in a few days by a picture of Tiger's latest girlfriend, someone Chamblee pissed off, some comment Elk + a single barrel whiskey made on Twitter, or whatever and forget all about that 4 1/2 minutes......

This isn't on other people. It's on JB, and I'm happy to keep the spotlight shining on him, because this crap needs to change. People don't play golf because it takes too long as it is… and you want to justify someone taking seven times as long as they're often allowed to just to hit a layup?

I'm sorry, but no… at 1:00? Nobody would care. At 1:30, a few people would mention it. At 2:00, Twitter would light up.

When someone takes long enough for me to make popcorn - in a kettle, not a microwave - they deserve every bit of negative attention coming to them.

6-7. Undue Delay; Slow Play 

The player must play without undue delay and in accordance with any pace of play guidelines that the Committee may establish. Between completion of a hole and playing from the next teeing ground, the player must not unduly delay play. 

Penalty for Breach of Rule 6-7: 

Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes.

[Rulesman]

“Players don't care about getting fined,” said Palmer.

“If you start docking guys shots that’s a big deal,” added Jimmy Walker. “That’s how you fix it.”

The PGA Tour has handed out just two penalties for slow play since 1995.

That first and second rounds on Tour typically take five hours for a three-ball suggests the current policy doesn’t work. The fine for 10 bad times – $10,000 – is .005 percent of the first-place check at The Players Championship. A deterrent, it is not.

 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Rulesman

[Rulesman]

14 hours ago, Lihu said:

I just want to see a video of the entire 4:10

Masocist

But here it is http://www.skysports.com/golf/news/12232/11227747/pga-tour-players-slam-slow-play-after-six-hour-round-at-torrey-pines

Edited February 1, 2018 by Rulesman

[Marty2019]

18 hours ago, nevets88 said:

Holmes - I don't understand what the big hoopla is about..

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2018/1/30/jb-holmes-i-dont-understand-what-the-big-hoopla-is-all-about.html

He doesn't get it at all.  He's still seemingly unaware of the damage he did to the game. 

I would pull him aside and tell him that the million dollar purse he was going for is mostly the result of TV money, and that is from fans watching on TV.   When the last group is on the last hole, with all 3 of them still having a chance to win or get in a playoff, that is the moment of maximum drama, and it's great TV, but when he stands there for over 4 minutes, the drama is destroyed and marginal viewers are driven away from wanting to watch golf on TV.   That's why what he did was selfish.  He wanted that million bucks, even if it cost the tour down the road. 

The networks need to go to the commissioner and tell him, that was really bad TV, and we can't televise stuff like that.   Then the commissioner needs to go to the players and say, we need a solution to this because otherwise,  if this happens regularly, we will kill the goose that laid the golden egg.  NO ONE WANTS TO WATCH A GUY STAND THERE FOR 4 MINUTES. 

 

 

[Pete]

Hey guys. I'm back on TST for the first time in months. I haven't watched much golf at all either, but when I saw this in the news, I knew I had to see what you guys were saying. It seems you're mostly as flabbergasted as I am.

I am gobsmacked not only by the 4 minutes but by Holmes' total lack of awareness that this is an unacceptable amount of time to take over a shot. And then Justin Thomas defending him!

You can't just wait for the wind to stop blowing. Wind is part of golf. Yeah it's blustery and unpredictable sometimes. Deal with it the same way everyone else has to.

Holmes should apologise to Noren and the fans. The PGA should definitely do something publicly to highlight this unacceptable behavior.

P.S. Yeah, I used both 'flabbergasted' and 'gobsmacked' in this post. I even thought about using 'dumbfounded'!

[Marty2019]

The crazy thing is, based on the commissioner's comments about it, he doesn't get it either. 

Well, to paraphrase James Carville, "It's the ratings, stupid."  That's where that million dollar purse comes from. 

Imagine this conversation:

"Oh, look, honey, it's 7 o-clock.  I'm going to switch over to the Grammy red carpet show and see what people are wearing.   Oh, wait, the golf is still on."

"Leave it there, sweetie.  I haven't watched golf in a while.  Oh, look!  It's the 18th hole!  This should be over shortly.  Oh, look, they're all in contention!   This should be good!" 

"Honey, why is that man just standing there?"

"I don't know.  Maybe he's between clubs.  Don't worry.  This won't take long." 

[minutes pass]

"Honey, what is he doing?  Why do you want to watch this?  This is boring." 

"Okay, okay.  You can switch it back to Real Housewives." 

Imagine that same conversation happening in a million households. 

But Jay Monahan thinks this is okay.  Everything's just fine. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Marty2019

[Rulesman]

I wonder how many of these guys dare to enter Eurotour events. Penalties strokes are at risk there, as opposed to non enforced cash penalties.

[TheZoid]

I do love the reactions like "...damage to the game...".  Forcing the people that actually play the game for a living to play at the spectator’s opinion of what their pace should be would "damage the game".

Responding to iacas…

“I disagree.  The rule is interpreted a certain way….”

The rules officials, his playing partner, Justin Thomas….or the people actually involved in the tournament apparently didn’t think there was a rule broken.  Therefore, the rule wasn’t broken

“…0.40 seconds….4:30 is SEVEN TIMES…”

This is used when players are out of position as a way to hurry them up.  It isn’t a hard rule, no buzzer goes off at 0.41 and players aren’t penalized.  This was a good use of perspective to emphasize your point, but….it's the 72^nd hole, the player is trying to make the right choice, and its 4 minutes…in those circumstances...I don't see undo delay here at all

“...again, you’re in the minority…”

This is the element of the discussion I think is most important.  While I’m in the minority…I’m offering a players perspective…not some guy sitting on his couch who fast forwarded through it anyways.  The players supported him, because they understand…the rules officials left him alone…because they understand…Noren said nothing…because he understands….

I used to ignore people yelling at me while working a traffic accident to hurry up, because they had no clue what we were doing.  They are just irritated because they think they are more important than the investigation I was trying to finish…

I’m sorry, spectators don’t get to dictate the pace of play.  This has gone on for years…in Curt Sampson’s book “Hogan”…he referenced players being angry at officials for pushing them around Oakmont and leaving Hogan alone.  When you start pushing players and trying to selectively enforce arbitrary rules…they don’t like it.

Again…the players and the rules officials don’t mind.  They matter…the spectator’s selfish opinion doesn’t.

[klineka]

5 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

“I disagree.  The rule is interpreted a certain way….”

The rules officials, his playing partner, Justin Thomas….or the people actually involved in the tournament apparently didn’t think there was a rule broken.  Therefore, the rule wasn’t broken

Just because the rule wasnt enforced doesnt mean it wasnt broken. I drive above the speed limit all the time as most other people do. We are breaking the law/rule but most of the time it doesnt get enforced. That doesnt change the fact that the law/rule was still broken. 

Here is the definition for the word "undue" - unwarranted or inappropriate because excessive or disproportionate

The amount of time JB Holmes took to hit that shot was unwarranted and inappropriate because it was both excessive in duration and disproportionate to the amount of time he took for other shots throughout the round.

JB Holmes caused undue delay by waiting that long to hit that shot. He broke the rule. Just because the rule wasnt enforced does not mean he didnt break the rule.

6 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

“...again, you’re in the minority…”

The players supported him

No they didnt

[Golfingdad]

39 minutes ago, klineka said:

Just because the rule wasnt enforced doesnt mean it wasnt broken. I drive above the speed limit all the time as most other people do. We are breaking the law/rule but most of the time it doesnt get enforced. That doesnt change the fact that the law/rule was still broken. 

Here is the definition for the word "undue" - unwarranted or inappropriate because excessive or disproportionate

The amount of time JB Holmes took to hit that shot was unwarranted and inappropriate because it was both excessive in duration and disproportionate to the amount of time he took for other shots throughout the round.

JB Holmes caused undue delay by waiting that long to hit that shot. He broke the rule. Just because the rule wasnt enforced does not mean he didnt break the rule.

No they didnt

“Surprisingly” the tour neither collectively supported him or criticized him. ;)

http://golfweek.com/2018/01/31/justin-thomas-on-holmes-slow-play-criticism-i-have-j-b-s-back-all-day/

[TheZoid]

7 minutes ago, klineka said:

Just because the rule wasnt enforced doesnt mean it wasnt broken. I drive above the speed limit all the time as most other people do. We are breaking the law/rule but most of the time it doesnt get enforced. That doesnt change the fact that the law/rule was still broken. 

Here is the definition for the word "undue" - unwarranted or inappropriate because excessive or disproportionate

...and none of those words have a time assigned to them.  The other shots hit during the round weren't that shot...the rule wasn't broken.  Speed limits have numbers....that's a false analogy.  The sign says 65mph...not citations will be issued when speed is unwarranted.

 

That's 4 players and Elk trying to get likes to promote his "Secret Golf" gimmick....

There are thousands of professionals world wide that play competitive golf for a living.....where is the outcry from the majority to hang shot clocks on the caddies?  It doesn't exist because players understand that the pace of play in tournament conditions can vary depending on a lot of factors.  In this case, the majority of players don't want some type of rigid time constraint placed over their rounds...the game is hard enough as it it.

[Fourputt]

3 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

...and none of those words have a time assigned to them.  The other shots hit during the round weren't that shot...the rule wasn't broken.  Speed limits have numbers....that's a false analogy.  The sign says 65mph...not citations will be issued when speed is unwarranted.

 

That's 4 players and Elk trying to get likes to promote his "Secret Golf" gimmick....

There are thousands of professionals world wide that play competitive golf for a living.....where is the outcry from the majority to hang shot clocks on the caddies?  It doesn't exist because players understand that the pace of play in tournament conditions can vary depending on a lot of factors.  In this case, the majority of players don't want some type of rigid time constraint placed over their rounds...the game is hard enough as it it.

As mentioned earlier, on the European Tour, he would have been penalized for it, so there are a bunch of professionals who would disagree with you.  They don't have to Tweet about it, they have it built into their standard tour rules.  Even the public course tournament club that I belong to has it's own pace of play policy, spelled out on our hard card, and we levy penalties for breaching that policy. 

Pace of play is of significant concern throughout the world of golf, and has been for more than a decade.  Burying your head in the sand doesn't change that.  I could have nearly played an entire hole in the time it took Holmes to play one shot, and I take a lot more strokes than he does.   JB Holmes has a reputation for slow play.  He has been called out for it several times in the past, but because there is no real deterrent on the PGA Tour, he continues to ignore the issue.

[iacas]

6 hours ago, Rulesman said:

That first and second rounds on Tour typically take five hours for a three-ball suggests the current policy doesn’t work. The fine for 10 bad times – $10,000 – is .005 percent of the first-place check at The Players Championship. A deterrent, it is not.

That's some bad math there (by whoever wrote the article):

10,000/1,890,000 = 0.005291005… yes… but that's 0.5291005%.

49 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

I do love the reactions like "...damage to the game...".  Forcing the people that actually play the game for a living to play at the spectator’s opinion of what their pace should be would "damage the game".

It's not the spectator's opinion. It's in the rules. At no point in the last 30 years of golf's rules has 4:30 to play been considered legitimate when it's clearly your turn to play.

49 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

“I disagree.  The rule is interpreted a certain way….”

The rules officials, his playing partner, Justin Thomas….or the people actually involved in the tournament apparently didn’t think there was a rule broken.  Therefore, the rule wasn’t broken

That's a logical fallacy of your own.

The rule was broken. He unduly delayed play.

49 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

“…0.40 seconds….4:30 is SEVEN TIMES…”

This is used when players are out of position as a way to hurry them up.  It isn’t a hard rule, no buzzer goes off at 0.41 and players aren’t penalized.  This was a good use of perspective to emphasize your point, but….it's the 72^nd hole, the player is trying to make the right choice, and its 4 minutes…in those circumstances...I don't see undo delay here at all

It's been established as a legitimate maximum allowed time to play your shot, across golf, for second shots when it's your turn to play.

Players who are on the clock are penalized, per the policy, when they hit 0:41.

It is undue delay. The circumstances - which hole you're playing - do not matter. They simply do not. Equity applies here - if it's a penalty on Thursday morning it's a penalty on Sunday evening.

This wasn't a guy going to 1:00. Or 1:30. It's a guy going to THREE TIMES even the second time, a time in which THREE players are expected to play their shots (with ten extra seconds to spare).

49 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

“...again, you’re in the minority…”

This is the element of the discussion I think is most important.  While I’m in the minority…I’m offering a players perspective… The players supported him, because they understand…the rules officials left him alone…because they understand…Noren said nothing…because he understands….

You're not offering a player's perspective. You're just justifying the actions of one player. The players themselves are providing their perspective, and those who aren't directly involved and who are expressing their opinions disagree with you, too.

Noren was trying to be a nice guy.

The players did not support him.

59 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

I used to ignore people yelling at me while working a traffic accident to hurry up, because they had no clue what we were doing.  They are just irritated because they think they are more important than the investigation I was trying to finish…

That's not the same thing at all.

59 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

Again…the players and the rules officials don’t mind.  They matter…the spectator’s selfish opinion doesn’t.

The rules officials failed the sport, they failed the Tour, and they failed the spectators. They work for the players, and the PGA Tour is still largely player-run, but maybe the only bright side of this is that it will amount to a change.

Also, the spectators DO matter. Ask Jay Monaghan if the spectators matter, and he's going to disagree with you. Without spectators, there is no PGA Tour.

4 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

That's 4 players and Elk trying to get likes to promote his "Secret Golf" gimmick....

Oh, so you'll just dismiss stuff you don't like. Okay.

17 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

...and none of those words have a time assigned to them.  The other shots hit during the round weren't that shot...the rule wasn't broken.  Speed limits have numbers....that's a false analogy.  The sign says 65mph...not citations will be issued when speed is unwarranted.

When a group isn't on the clock, you're right, there is a bit of subjectivity. But 4:30 is well, well beyond that boundary.

[klineka]

23 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

...and none of those words have a time assigned to them.  The other shots hit during the round weren't that shot...the rule wasn't broken.  Speed limits have numbers....that's a false analogy.  The sign says 65mph...not citations will be issued when speed is unwarranted.

You are correct that none of those words have a time assigned to them, but if you actually think taking over 4 minutes to hit a ball that's in the fairway is warranted, appropriate and not excessive, then I have nothing further to say to you about this topic.

 

[TheZoid]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

When a group isn't on the clock, you're right, there is a bit of subjectivity. But 4:30 is well, well beyond that boundary.

So....whats the boundary? 4:29? 4:28?........

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

Oh, so you'll just dismiss stuff you don't like. Okay.

The Elk part was a joke....the idea was to emphasize it was a minority....

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

The rules officials failed the sport, they failed the Tour, and they failed the spectators. They work for the players, and the PGA Tour is still largely player-run, but maybe the only bright side of this is that it will amount to a change.

Also, the spectators DO matter. Ask Jay Monaghan if the spectators matter, and he's going to disagree with you. Without spectators, there is no PGA Tour.

This makes my point....the PGA tour is largely run by players, when they want it changed...it will change...until then, it won't...because it doesn't need to

I agree on the spectators being important....however, real golf fans will stick around 4 1/2 minutes or not...which is the steady state of the game.  It seems like there are some post-Tiger-boom retraction issues that the golf world is trying get back...and I just don't think they can do it with annoying golf cart radios and cattle-prodding the best players on earth, but that's a different discussion.

13 minutes ago, iacas said:

You're not offering a player's perspective. You're just justifying the actions of one player. The players themselves are providing their perspective, and those who aren't directly involved and who are expressing their opinions disagree with you, too.

Noren was trying to be a nice guy.

The players did not support him.

I've played in tournaments that dragged and ones that went quick....and it was based on the players and conditions....that's a players perspective

...and yes he was....because Noren understands tournament golf...

Some did some didn't.....with out some polls its hard to say one way or the other....

To the reply about the time:

1) When on the clock 2) There would be strokes given daily if it was enforced, they're not...this becomes an issue when selectively enforcing rules  3) "undue" is subjective based on circumstance

28 minutes ago, iacas said:

That's a logical fallacy of your own.

The rule was broken. He unduly delayed play.

You'll have to cite the fallacy...Maybe an appeal to authority fallacy...but its a subjective rule...so it falls on those who enforce the rule.  Very strike-zonish kinda rule....

 

Its a never ending debate.....because until some hard and fast rule is put in place and enforced (which it won't be), everyone will continue to think everyone is slow but them....and..."everyone plays slow but me....man they play slow....those guys on TV play slow"....has just turned into this bleating sheep background noise that I think should just be ignored....