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Are Golfers Better on Faster or Slower Greens?


billchao
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I keep coming back to the thought that I don't see too many flat, straight putts. Most putts I see have some curve to them.

It would seem to me that on faster greens, any breaks would be more difficult since the ball would break faster. This would seem to me that reading both the speed, and distance, of the break, would be tougher to handle for the putt at hand. 

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I'd putt better on faster greens.  I always do.

Now, I'm not sure if that's because:

  • I tend to leave putts short....or
  • I just am able to hit my line better with a gentler stroke......or
  • if it's just because faster greens to be better maintained and thus roll better....

But I do putt quite a bit better on faster greens.  I assume it's pretty much all three above, and the first two are quite a bit related....

Bill - 

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@NM Golf makes a good point.  The penalty/challenge for landing above the hole is far more severe on fast greens.  The result can be...miss putt, chip or pitch back on, and try again.  

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Personally I putt better on fast greens. I like to putt when I can make a shorter stroke. It just seems to be easier for me. That being said, I tend to really focus on the speed of the putts more than the line. Usually if I can get the speed right, I'll figure out where to put the ball. The course that I play at most often has some very fast greens (especially on the week-end) and it just seems like I make more putts when they are faster.

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Im not sure what the "right" answer is..but looking back at last season every time I struggled with putting it was on faster greens, but that could be just how it worked out. No Matter how fast or slow, I always putt better when I hit it the ball closer to the hole on my approach!

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Guys, remember too please as you consider these things… the differences are not as astounding as many of you seem to want to believe. Most people play on greens that are 8-9, and PGA Tour players play on greens that are 11-12. We're not talking about 7 going to 14s.

And… a great number of players actually do play on greens that are 11+ most days they play.

The PGA Tour doesn't have a hold on greens stimping at 12… nor do they play, despite what they tell you, greens that stimp at 14 or 15 almost ever.

Slow Greens… Fast Greens…
… have less break … have more break
… tend to be bumpier … tend to be truer
… have a smaller disparity between uphill and downhill putts … have a greater disparity between uphill and downhill putts
… require a larger stroke … require a smaller stroke
… allow for the area immediately around the hole to be sloped 2-4% … generally require that the area immediately around the hole be sloped at 1-2%

That's about all I can think of. Green = an advantage, however small.

11 minutes ago, Piz said:

@NM Golf makes a good point.  The penalty/challenge for landing above the hole is far more severe on fast greens.  The result can be...miss putt, chip or pitch back on, and try again.  

Yes, please, let's reduce this entire discussion to one hypothetical, and then not only that, take the extreme example of someone putting off a green. :-P

C'mon, that's not how this stuff works. I've seen people four-putt because the greens were slow and they couldn't make themselves hit a long uphill putt hard enough, too, but I'm not going to throw it out there with any weight at all to it.


Those of you saying that regular players don't have the skill to adjust to playing faster greens… are basically saying that you don't believe regular players don't have the skill to adjust to hitting a 25-foot putt on one hole and then having a 10-footer on the next hole.

Players adjust all the time, with every putt they hit.

The studies I remember reading, again, gave players adequate time to prepare. I still want to say 30 minutes to get used to the speed of the greens. They didn't, like many regular players, just get thrown out onto the course after hitting six putts on the practice green like I suspect a lot of people did.

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Faster is better than slower any day. The ball rolls smooth and slow, which is easier for the cup to capture. Plus shorter stroke. 

 

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I'm thinking too that some of the differences in the expressed opinions may depend on one's putting style.  Those who like to die the ball into the hole would tend to be short more often on slow greens than they will on fast greens.  I generally plan my stroke as if I was going to run the ball past the hole by a foot or a bit more, so having the opportunity to play a short putt (3 to 6 feet) more aggressively I see as an advantage. 

I generally adjust to different green speeds fairly well but I also have to modify my intended strategy closer to a die at the hole speed so that I don't power the ball 5 feet by.

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1 hour ago, iacas said:

Kevin, that’s a really bad example.

On phone so can’t elaborate but think about it please?

The main thing I was trying to explain was that the faster you have to putt the ball, the longer the stroke has to be, and the easier it is to start the ball offline, which is one of the points you brought up in post #42 that slower greens require faster initial speeds which make the stroke longer and faster greens require slower initial speeds which make the stroke shorter, just like a 4 foot putt requires slower initial speeds thus a shorter stroke vs a 50 foot putt. Sorry if it didnt make sense or wasn't the best example. Sometimes I dont do the best job explaining the thoughts that are in my head. Oops. :hmm:

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12 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

I'm thinking too that some of the differences in the expressed opinions may depend on one's putting style.  Those who like to die the ball into the hole would tend to be short more often on slow greens than they will on fast greens.  I generally plan my stroke as if I was going to run the ball past the hole by a foot or a bit more, so having the opportunity to play a short putt (3 to 6 feet) more aggressively I see as an advantage. 

Rick, you seem to be confusing "putting aggressively" with the requirement that you hit a same-length putt firmer on the slower greens.

In other words, nothing is stopping you from putting "aggressively" (two or three feet past the hole) on faster greens.

And, FWIW, I'm a "die it in the hole" kind of guy, and I try to get my putts to go about 1-2 feet beyond the cup. I don't think "a foot or a bit more" and "die it in the hole" are different types of putters.

12 minutes ago, klineka said:

Sorry if it didnt make sense or wasn't the best example.

It wasn't a good example of that, and I don't know that it needed explaining anyway. I think people realize that you have to hit putts harder on slower greens.

For one, your 50-footer on slow greens breaks a hell of a lot less than a 50-footer on fast greens. Your example introduces too many unnecessary variables. Again, I think people already understand the basic point: you have to hit them harder on slower greens.

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As was kind of mentioned in a post earlier, I think that deceleration time makes faster greens more difficult.   

On a fast green you can have a putt that is going a very good speed to go in the hole miss and roll 5 feet past simply because it takes so long for a put to slow down (especially if there is even the smallest bit of downslope).  On a slow green, if you put it 5 feet past the hole, it was probably going too fast to go in the hole in the first place.  

You see this on the tour all the time.   Putts that have what appears to be great speed trickle by the hole and end up 5 or 6 feet past.  Though it is not as noticeable, because tour putters are so good at cleaning up 5 footers.   but a 10 handicap is only making about half of those.   

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37 minutes ago, lastings said:

As was kind of mentioned in a post earlier, I think that deceleration time makes faster greens more difficult.

It's not that much different.

37 minutes ago, lastings said:

On a fast green you can have a putt that is going a very good speed to go in the hole miss and roll 5 feet past simply because it takes so long for a put to slow down…

That putt would still roll about four feet past the hole on a slower green.

And putts that come up three feet short on a slower green might roll out to tap-in range on a faster green.

37 minutes ago, lastings said:

You see this on the tour all the time. Putts that have what appears to be great speed trickle by the hole and end up 5 or 6 feet past. Though it is not as noticeable, because tour putters are so good at cleaning up 5 footers. but a 10 handicap is only making about half of those.

What makes you think that 10 handicappers would putt that aggressively? PGA Tour players sometimes putt a bit more aggressively because they make a good percentage of their 3-4 footers.

BTW the difference from 5 and 6 feet is only about 15%. Putting, as you should know, has a relatively low Separation Value. And… that's with those 10 handicappers putting on worse greens.

P.S. PGA Tour players don't putt that aggressively, either, because they make only between 2/3 and 3/4 of their putts from 5-6 feet.

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I prefer greens to be faster than average as long as the pin placements and contours stay close to the USGA recommendations.  Based upon what I have read above my home course has greens that I estimate run in the 8-9 range and I can play then well.    I have played at some clubs with greens like lightning and can handle them unless there is a ridiculous pin placement. But in general, I am terrible on slow greens.

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2 hours ago, iacas said:

Guys, remember too please as you consider these things… the differences are not as astounding as many of you seem to want to believe. Most people play on greens that are 8-9, and PGA Tour players play on greens that are 11-12. We're not talking about 7 going to 14s.

Interesting, when you put it into this perspective. Two to four feet out of 8 to 12 feet doesn't sound like a lot at all?

I wonder why it feels like so much more?

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I find it interesting that the people who dislike fast greens complain about blowing putts too far past the hole when they miss, but never bring up the times they leave putts short on a slower green.

It's almost as if the golfer blames the green speed for hitting a ball 4' past the hole on a fast green, but it's the player's fault for leaving it 4' short on a slow green. Clearly, both are attributable to errors in judgment or execution.

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14 minutes ago, billchao said:

I find it interesting that the people who dislike fast greens complain about blowing putts too far past the hole when they miss, but never bring up the times they leave putts short on a slower green.

It's almost as if the golfer blames the green speed for hitting a ball 4' past the hole on a fast green, but it's the player's fault for leaving it 4' short on a slow green. Clearly, both are attributable to errors in judgment or execution.

I think more players than not, forget the ball does exactly what they, the player makes it do. :-O

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43 minutes ago, iacas said:

What makes you think that 10 handicappers would putt that aggressively? PGA Tour players sometimes putt a bit more aggressively because they make a good percentage of their 3-4 footers.

Aggressive would not be the right word.  mishit or misjudged would be better.  
10 handicaps are simply worse putters than PGA players, and a putt that is hit a bit too far is punished more on a faster green.   

 

45 minutes ago, iacas said:

Putting, as you should know, has a relatively low Separation Value. And… that's with those 10 handicappers putting on worse greens.

This entire thread has probably gone on way to long given how much putting actually impacts your final score.  but, I do think faster greens expand that separation value. even if it's only by a little. 

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I tend to over read break and under putt distance on slow greens. My stroke tends to be less smooth as well, which leads to poor contact and bad starting lines. 

 

Fast greens are more intuitive to me, both in terms of reading and execution. 

 

I played mostly faster greens in high school about 15 years ago, and now play mostly slower greens. The adjustment to faster greens comes pretty quick but I continuously struggle on slow greens. 

 

I prefer chipping and pitching into faster greens as well. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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