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Tournament Golf History - Offshoot of Tiger/Jack GOAT Discussion


turtleback
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The Jack/Tiger thread has always had s propensity to wander into off-topic territory, because other golfers and situations and issues come up in the discussion and become interesting tangents.  I certainly have been guilty several times.  So I am starting this thread as an outlet for those things that may come up elsewhere, where they are off topic, so they can be discussed here.  Kind of a less focused general depot for non Jack/Tiger/GOAT talk.

I'll start with this question - was it reasonable for guys like Hagen and Hogan to be written out of the GOAT discussion by definition?  Are there other guys that could also be included?  

 

But then again, what the hell do I know?

Rich - in name only

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19 minutes ago, turtleback said:

The Jack/Tiger thread has always had s propensity to wander into off-topic territory, because other golfers and situations and issues come up in the discussion and become interesting tangents.  I certainly have been guilty several times.  So I am starting this thread as an outlet for those things that may come up elsewhere, where they are off topic, so they can be discussed here.  Kind of a less focused general depot for non Jack/Tiger/GOAT talk.

I'll start with this question - was it reasonable for guys like Hagen and Hogan to be written out of the GOAT discussion by definition?  Are there other guys that could also be included?  

 

I would add Snead to the list too. Certainly if you look at their bodies of work, they should be considered.

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44 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

I would add Snead to the list too. Certainly if you look at their bodies of work, they should be considered.

I can certainly go along with that.  Jack's first version of what it would take to be considered the greatest, once he turned pro, was beating Snead's record for most PGA tour wins.  Even that recently majors had not yet reached the overweening importance that Jack poured into them later.

But then again, what the hell do I know?

Rich - in name only

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  • iacas changed the title to Tournament Golf History - Offshoot of Tiger/Jack GOAT Discussion

Tiger has a couple of ways to move up on the GOAT list. He only needs a few more wins to pass Snead in career total. The big prize seems out of reach though. Can't see him winning the four majors needed to tie Jack, much less 5 to pass him. So that would leave him second or third, which still speaks to his excellence before his injuries and subsequent prescription drug, marital issues  derailed his career. Now that he's healthy though, those carrots are still out there, along with one nobody brings up. If he can somehow win the 5 more majors, not only will he be the GOAT, but he will pass Ben Hogan for Best Comeback of All Time. As a sports fan, you have to root for him, it would be fun to watch unfold.

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(edited)
8 minutes ago, GrandStranded said:

Tiger has a couple of ways to move up on the GOAT list. He only needs a few more wins to pass Snead in career total. The big prize seems out of reach though. Can't see him winning the four majors needed to tie Jack, much less 5 to pass him. So that would leave him second or third, which still speaks to his excellence before his injuries and subsequent prescription drug, marital issues  derailed his career. Now that he's healthy though, those carrots are still out there, along with one nobody brings up. If he can somehow win the 5 more majors, not only will he be the GOAT, but he will pass Ben Hogan for Best Comeback of All Time. As a sports fan, you have to root for him, it would be fun to watch unfold.

Are you saying that the only way you would recognize him as GOAT is if he has the most majors?  If so, that of course writes Hogan, Snead, and Hagen and any others right out of the conversation.

Edited by turtleback

But then again, what the hell do I know?

Rich - in name only

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9 minutes ago, GrandStranded said:

Tiger has a couple of ways to move up on the GOAT list.

How does one move up from #1?

9 minutes ago, GrandStranded said:

So that would leave him second or third

Third? Second on the majors total list, I'll give you (second on GOAT list is your opinion, and I disagree). But third… on what list?

9 minutes ago, GrandStranded said:

If he can somehow win the 5 more majors, not only will he be the GOAT, but he will pass Ben Hogan for Best Comeback of All Time. As a sports fan, you have to root for him, it would be fun to watch unfold.

Some people are saying that if he wins a regular PGA Tour event it will better Hogan's comeback. I'm not of that opinion myself, but… I'd be willing to call it a greater comeback well before he gets five more majors. For me, it's somewhere between winning a regular PGA Tour event and winning three majors. It may exist at winning one, or two, or ten regular PGA Tour events… or some combination. I don't know.

Hogan's injury was different. He took and needed significantly less time off. He nearly died, yes, but you can nearly die of a gunshot wound (for example) but be in better health to play golf than a guy who can't even bend over because of a spinal issue.

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3 minutes ago, turtleback said:

Are you saying that the only way you would recognize him as GOAT is if he has the most majors?  If so, that of course writes Hogan, Snead, and Hagen and any others right out of the conversation.

They are in the conversation, just as much as Tiger. They are all behind Jack though. The maors were always the most important tournaments. Even though the list has changed, ie. the US Am and the Western Open were considered Majors back in the day. The British was always a major, even when a lot of Americans didn't go over to play. Majors just matter. Ask any pro what he'd rather have. 3 John Deere Classics, or one British open.

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2 minutes ago, GrandStranded said:

The maors were always the most important tournaments.

That's not even remotely true.

2 minutes ago, GrandStranded said:

The British was always a major, even when a lot of Americans didn't go over to play.

That's a great example of why the majors weren't always "the most important tournaments."

They weren't, and it's revisionist history to suggest that they were.

The PGA - even though it was local for the bulk of the world's best golfers - wasn't always well attended either.

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Just now, GrandStranded said:

They are in the conversation, just as much as Tiger. They are all behind Jack though. The maors were always the most important tournaments. Even though the list has changed, ie. the US Am and the Western Open were considered Majors back in the day. The British was always a major, even when a lot of Americans didn't go over to play. Majors just matter. Ask any pro what he'd rather have. 3 John Deere Classics, or one British open.

How come Jack never knew that?  He thought the most PGA wins was the ticket at first - not majors.  I think you would have a very hard time demonstrating that majors were ALWAYS the most important.  Unless we define ALWAYS as after about 1970.

And if majors were ALWAYS the most important, why did no one consider Walter Hagen the GOAT when HE had the most majors at 11.  Especially when he really had 16 majors?  

But then again, what the hell do I know?

Rich - in name only

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12 minutes ago, iacas said:

How does one move up from #1?

Third? Second on the majors total list, I'll give you (second on GOAT list is your opinion, and I disagree). But third… on what list?

Some people are saying that if he wins a regular PGA Tour event it will better Hogan's comeback. I'm not of that opinion myself, but… I'd be willing to call it a greater comeback well before he gets five more majors. For me, it's somewhere between winning a regular PGA Tour event and winning three majors. It may exist at winning one, or two, or ten regular PGA Tour events… or some combination. I don't know.

Hogan's injury was different. He took and needed significantly less time off. He nearly died, yes, but you can nearly die of a gunshot wound (for example) but be in better health to play golf than a guy who can't even bend over because of a spinal issue.

Anyone who would equate Tiger winning one Tour event with Hogan's accomplishments after a near fatal head on collision with a Greyhound bus is simply redifining the word "absurd". It isn't even worthy of discussion. Also, it's amusing the way Tiger supporters suggest one more Major win would suddenly make 15>18.

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9 minutes ago, iacas said:

That's not even remotely true.

That's a great example of why the majors weren't always "the most important tournaments."

They weren't, and it's revisionist history to suggest that they were.

The PGA - even though it was local for the bulk of the world's best golfers - wasn't always well attended either.

Actually, it was more of a scheduling issue for most when it came to competing the British Open for most Americans. I believe it was the PGA was often scheduled within a week or two of the Open. Rather then take a few weeks to boat over, and get acclimated, most pros chose to stay home and play the PGA..

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Just now, Dr. Manhattan said:

I don't think anyone can top Hogan's comeback. He wasn't even supposed to walk, never mind playing dominant golf at a level nobody has ever reached other than maybe Tiger and Bobby.

 

And to complicate matters, he had to begin his rehab with Glen Ford's golf swing.

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Just now, Piz said:

And to complicate matters, he had to begin his rehab with Glen Ford's golf swing.

LMAO

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16 minutes ago, turtleback said:

How come Jack never knew that?  He thought the most PGA wins was the ticket at first - not majors.  I think you would have a very hard time demonstrating that majors were ALWAYS the most important.  Unless we define ALWAYS as after about 1970.

And if majors were ALWAYS the most important, why did no one consider Walter Hagen the GOAT when HE had the most majors at 11.  Especially when he really had 16 majors?  

As far as Hagen, Their was no internet in his day, and no inane catch phrases like GOAT. I think he received plenty of acclaim both in his day and beyond. As did Hogan, Snead, Palmer, and Nicklaus. Now, however, with all the media and Nike hyperbole, and the little Tigers roaming the internet things have changed. Thank goodness most sports fans don't use the logic the Tiger revisionists do. Ruth wouldn't even be worthy of HOF status, nor Wilt, Russell, West, Jim Brown, Marino, Montana, Rice. They would have be athletic dinosaurs, dismissed  the way so many Tiger fans do players from 30-40 years ago. 

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21 minutes ago, GrandStranded said:

Anyone who would equate Tiger winning one Tour event with Hogan's accomplishments after a near fatal head on collision with a Greyhound bus is simply redifining the word "absurd". It isn't even worthy of discussion. Also, it's amusing the way Tiger supporters suggest one more Major win would suddenly make 15>18.

No one is equating that.  Most of us Tiger supporters think, with very good reason, that it is ALREADY true that (14 + the rest of Tiger's accomplishments) > (18 + the rest of Jack's accomplishments.). If you are just going to stick with 18>14 and that completely determines it, then I fear there won't be much for you in this discussion - because you end it before it starts.

But then again, what the hell do I know?

Rich - in name only

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2 minutes ago, GrandStranded said:

As far as Hagen, Their was no internet in his day, and no inane catch phrases like GOAT. I think he received plenty of acclaim both in his day and beyond. As did Hogan, Snead, Palmer, and Nicklaus. Now, however, with all the media and Nike hyperbole, and the little Tigers roaming the internet things have changed. Thank goodness most sports fans don't use the logic the Tiger revisionists do. Ruth wouldn't even be worthy of HOF status, nor Wilt, Russell, West, Jim Brown, Marino, Montana, Rice. They would have be athletic dinosaurs, dismissed  the way so many Tiger fans do players from 30-40 years ago. 

 

Is Johnny Miller guilty of this too? In the mid-1990's, he said if Tiger wins 50 Tour events and 12 majors it might be the best career ever. Nicklaus was also talking a lot about how crazy the depth on Tour was around that time. Tiger made it look so easy to dominate the game that I believe people have now taken it for granted and assume he was beating a bunch of bums.

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10 minutes ago, GrandStranded said:

As far as Hagen, Their was no internet in his day, and no inane catch phrases like GOAT. I think he received plenty of acclaim both in his day and beyond. As did Hogan, Snead, Palmer, and Nicklaus. Now, however, with all the media and Nike hyperbole, and the little Tigers roaming the internet things have changed. Thank goodness most sports fans don't use the logic the Tiger revisionists do. Ruth wouldn't even be worthy of HOF status, nor Wilt, Russell, West, Jim Brown, Marino, Montana, Rice. They would have be athletic dinosaurs, dismissed  the way so many Tiger fans do players from 30-40 years ago. 

No, it is exactly the opposite.  Babe Ruth is CLEARLY the best hitter in the history of baseball, IMO, even though there was no internet back then.  What you are arguing is something akin to Rose being the best hitter in the history of baseball because 4256> any other players hits.  Taking one cherry and building a sundae.

You should look at the entirety, not cherry pick.

Edited by turtleback

But then again, what the hell do I know?

Rich - in name only

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