Caring About Your Shots (and Playing as Slowly) as Tour Players

[iacas]

1 hour ago, NEhomer said:

Next Sunday, two teams will play for the NCAA Men's Basketball National Title. Those college players however, won't care as much about winning that title as NBA players because their play is not feeding their families.

1 hour ago, Zeph said:

You are comparing oranges and apples.

He is, and this was already pointed out to him when he pulled the "U.S. Amateur" crap out of his rear end earlier.

7 hours ago, iacas said:

… I don't care about my shots as much as a guy playing for his livelihood, his place in history, etc.

NCAA guys fit that one, even if they don't fit the "livelihood" part (though one could argue their livelihood may be affected, too, in the future).

Comparing an 8 handicapper - or me - to someone competing in the NCAA March Madness is precisely that… madness.

[Buckeyebowman]

Having arrived late at this thread, all I will say is this. NE Homer has to be an absolute joy to haul around in your foursome! I'd have to brain him after the 4th or 5th hole!

[boogielicious]

9 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

Having arrived late at this thread, all I will say is this. NE Homer has to be an absolute joy to haul around in your foursome! I'd have to brain him after the 4th or 5th hole!

I don’t think he is saying that he is slow. He is just saying that the shots are important to him and he takes time there to focus. He may be fast everywhere else. 

I find slow players do everything slow. They walk slow, dawdle between shots, don’t pay attention to when it’s their turn, wait until it’s their turn to start thinking about which club to use. It’s like playing with a sloth. 

[NEhomer]

9 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

Having arrived late at this thread, all I will say is this. NE Homer has to be an absolute joy to haul around in your foursome! I'd have to brain him after the 4th or 5th hole!

Not only is that a shitty thing to say but in fact, a lot of folks enjoy playing with me. I have a lot of fun and celebrate anyone's great shots. I respect others and I respect the game. Strange that internet banter would annoy you so.

16 hours ago, iacas said:

He is, and this was already pointed out to him when he pulled the "U.S. Amateur" crap out of his rear end earlier.

NCAA guys fit that one, even if they don't fit the "livelihood" part (though one could argue their livelihood may be affected, too, in the future).

Comparing an 8 handicapper - or me - to someone competing in the NCAA March Madness is precisely that… madness.

Comparing an 8 handicapper - or me - to someone competing in the NCAA March Madness is precisely that… madness.

In regard to your narrow not-making-a-living-off-of-it being the end all point of what matters most, the comparison is apt.

 

...and besides, this has all been a spin off of what began as how much time it takes to complete being ready to swing the club. The degree of importance aside, I think it would screw me up to take a full 3 or 4 minutes on every shot. Some players would benefit from slowing down a bit. My partner tries but he's just a pull the trigger kind of guy.

[Fourputt]

20 hours ago, NEhomer said:

Next Sunday, two teams will play for the NCAA Men's Basketball National Title. Those college players however, won't care as much about winning that title as NBA players because their play is not feeding their families.

 

 

 

You really think that a national championship isn't life and eath to a college player?  Really?  That may be the only shot at stardom for a lot of those players.  Most players, even on a championship team, won't make it to the NBA. 

And the pro players are still taking home a paycheck regardless of whether or not they play their best game.  As long as they don't tank completely, it really won't make any difference in their careers.  Unlike a golfer, they aren't totally dependent on their own play to succeed.  A certain amount of complacency is often seen in professional team sports.  Granted that if it lasts very long, a shakeup will occur, but I contend that the amateur team player has more on the line when a championship is at stake than most pro players do.

That's OT anyway, and pretty much irrlelvant to golf.  It's a demonstrable fact that most amateurs do NOT do as much as they can to be their absolute best.  Whether it s time, money, or just plain desire, they simply fail to achieve their maximum potential, and that applies to their overall game as well as to most individual rounds.  

[billchao]

2 hours ago, NEhomer said:

The degree of importance aside, I think it would screw me up to take a full 3 or 4 minutes on every shot.

I agree that three or four minutes to decide on a shot is excessive. But again, consider the factors: what's at stake matters a lot. Plus, PGA Tour pros are discussing options and variables with their caddy, so the decisionmaking process is going to be slower than just one amateur deciding what to do by him or herself.

It's not really an excuse, though, especially in a case like J.B. Holmes ultimately deciding to lay up (he really needed 4:30 to play it safe?!?). Still, I don't believe they're taking that kind of time on every shot; it just stands out when they do.

[NEhomer]

1 hour ago, Fourputt said:

You really think that a national championship isn't life and eath to a college player?  Really?  That may be the only shot at stardom for a lot of those players.  Most players, even on a championship team, won't make it to the NBA. 

And the pro players are still taking home a paycheck regardless of whether or not they play their best game.  As long as they don't tank completely, it really won't make any difference in their careers.  Unlike a golfer, they aren't totally dependent on their own play to succeed.  A certain amount of complacency is often seen in professional team sports.  Granted that if it lasts very long, a shakeup will occur, but I contend that the amateur team player has more on the line when a championship is at stake than most pro players do.

That's OT anyway, and pretty much irrlelvant to golf.  It's a demonstrable fact that most amateurs do NOT do as much as they can to be their absolute best.  Whether it s time, money, or just plain desire, they simply fail to achieve their maximum potential, and that applies to their overall game as well as to most individual rounds.  

Um, no it is. That's the point I was making.

 

[JonMA1]

On 3/22/2018 at 7:54 AM, NEhomer said:

Of course there's a happy medium but sometimes when I play with high handicappers, it disappoints me that they're so self conscious that they rush their shots to get out of everyone's way. Hey man, you paid your greens fees or membership fee so you deserve a little time to settle into your shots. Were were all at your level at some point.

I care a great deal about how well my shot turns out - probably more than I should, but a lot less than those who have something beyond pride on the line.

That said, I have been accused of being in too much of a hurry.

But here's the thing, 90% of the my shots don't require much thought. I feel like I know my game well enough to make decisions while walking towards the ball. A quick glance at my GPS and I usually know which club to pull.

Here are some examples where I might have to put an additional 30 seconds of thought into a shot...

1. Reading a green I'm unfamiliar with.
2. Bad lie, elevated green, or a very strong headwind (even on these, it's only a question of how much extra club to take). 
3. Trouble shot.
4.  Lay up or go for it decision.
5. Club selection on the tee on a narrow par 4 I'm unfamiliar with.

I don't know what it's like to have an arsenal of shots in my game, but I'd guess better players have more to consider like flighting shots or working the ball which might make some decisions more complicated. 

My point is that most of the time I'm at a given distance that makes club selection pretty easy. All I'm thinking about while addressing the shot is making good contact.

As important as a low score is, it's also important to me not to slow others down. That probably does cause me to rush at times and hit a poor shot. Then again, I can take all the time in the world and still hit a poor shot. I also do not have much in the way of a pre-shot routine as most better players do.

[The Recreational Golfer]

On 3/23/2018 at 11:00 AM, NEhomer said:

Next Sunday, two teams will play for the NCAA Men's Basketball National Title. Those college players however, won't care as much about winning that title as NBA players because their play is not feeding their families.

 

 

 

The "feeding their families" argument for professional athletes always puzzles me. With NBA players getting multi-million-dollar contracts, win or lose, I don't think feeding their family is really an issue, though that might depend on what they have for dinner every night.

[Buckeyebowman]

Good one Rec! Reminds me of an NBA player who said, "How am I supposed to feed my family on 17 million a year"? It's like Sergio was advised by the gallery at Bethpage Black during the first US Open there. "Hit the ball!"

[HJJ003]

I think a lot of players could stand to slow down in their pre-shot routine. Save for a few people I have been paired with some people just grab the distance reading and pick their “150 club” or whatever they think matches the distance they have and swing away. It’s amazing how taking the time to asses the situation a little deeper can really help you manage your misses. With that said, I don’t think amateurs or at least weakened warriors should or even can care as much as professionals on a shot by shot basis.

[sjduffers]

I have played with someone in casual weekend rounds, at a "normal" pace, not fast by any means, but also not slow. And I have also played with the same person in tournament settings (not even in big tournaments, just the typical club events, where bragging rights carry a bit more weight) and seen him turn into Kevin Na (pre-reformation), with repeated practice swings, stepping in and backing off, rechecking the wind, looking up, behind, around, remarking the ball to adjust the line on the greens, etc...

In other words, that normal guy turned into a slow as molasses player in tournaments! And guess what? With no appreciable difference in the results. It's just in his mind that "focusing more helps improve my scores".  I call bullshit on that, not at our amateur level, at least.

And by the way I guess, that the greater mind focus of that one guy gets onto everyone else's mind too, because waiting on a slow player, for no good reason, is excruciating to me, and is actually causing me to play worse because I am pissed, and also faster to compensate and keep the group on pace... But keeping doing you, inconsiderate golfer.

[jsgolfer]

I’m not what you would call a slow golfer.  I’ve been told I should take more time, but that’s just not the way I play.  I have a normal ball flight, I have plenty of time to plan my shot when I’m waiting for others to hit their shots.  I see the distance, look at the shot I want to hit and away it goes.  If I have my swing going correctly, it takes a few seconds for me to pick a club, tee it up and launch it.

Never really needed to take lots of time to hit the ball.  And i still care about my score, but its not the end all be all.

As the Newport Cup guys will attest, you blink and you’ll miss me hit the ball.  

Edited March 25, 2018 by jsgolfer

[phillyk]

If I'm out casually, I have a distance, I pick the club nearest a full shot and hit.  Pro-ams are still more casual golf, although I may think more about wedges and spin.  When I play in bigger events/tournaments (bigger purses than a pro-am), I take more time deciding on what club to hit approaches with based on firmness, spin, and location.  For example, say I have 95yds, I have 4 potential clubs I could use: full 60 with lots of spin, nearly full 56 with medium spin and slightly lower ball flight, 3/4 52 with slightly less spin and lower ball flight, or a punch PW that goes very low.  What I use depends on mounding of green, pin location, speed, firmness, whether grass catches spin or not, wind, and whether there are obstructions in the way (like trees to go over).  This still doesn't take more than 20-30s to decide, but it's still more thought than a normal round.  Tee shots, however, are still pick the club and hit.  Not much thinking needed there.  If I start mulling over a shot too long, I'm probably psyching myself out.  I couldn't imagine spending a minute to decide what club/shot to hit.

[BaconNEggs]

On 3/24/2018 at 8:25 AM, NEhomer said:

Comparing an 8 handicapper - or me - to someone competing in the NCAA March Madness is precisely that… madness.

In regard to your narrow not-making-a-living-off-of-it being the end all point of what matters most, the comparison is apt.

You're being deliberately dishonest or not paying attention. He specifically listed "place in history" -- which playing for the national championship on TV in front of millions of people certainly qualifies. In addition, the "etc." would cover other situations that may make a situation more important to you that would potentially make you consider taking more time over a shot. Playing against your brother who you've never beat and have a slim lead going into the final few holes? Maybe that makes it more important to you, and you'll take more time. Playing in your club championship? Ditto. Of course, it works the other way too. Just trying to get 9 holes in after work before dark? Then you will probably play quicker than usual, and probably care less about your score.

The thing that is most frustrating about this discussion is that it's basically you plugging your ears as to other people's reasoning why they don't take as much time as possible to maximize every single shot, and then calling them liars when they say that scoring as absolutely low as possible every single round is not of the utmost importance. In case you haven't noticed, not a single person has sided with your position. 

It's because this is basic common sense, and it's bizarre to see you continue to deny it. People scale how much time they put into things depending on how important it is to them. And for the vast, vast majority of people, golf is a purely recreational activity that is not that important relative to other things in their life. 

If your recreational rounds are so important to you that you play them as if your livelihood depended on it, or as if your place in history in front of millions of people depended on it (the NCAA example), that's fine, but understand you are in a very small minority. 

 

[davidg]

i've realized over the years that it seems some people just don't know enough about their game or swing or the game itself to have anything to think about .. now don't take that negative , it's just the truth ..now if i'm the short knocker and i'm up and we're basically playing slow as a group then i need to hurry .. but if i get the chance i'm gonna put a little more thought and prep time into it .. my shots do count .. i want to score as good as possible

[NEhomer]

10 hours ago, BaconNEggs said:

You're being deliberately dishonest or not paying attention. He specifically listed "place in history" -- which playing for the national championship on TV in front of millions of people certainly qualifies. In addition, the "etc." would cover other situations that may make a situation more important to you that would potentially make you consider taking more time over a shot. Playing against your brother who you've never beat and have a slim lead going into the final few holes? Maybe that makes it more important to you, and you'll take more time. Playing in your club championship? Ditto. Of course, it works the other way too. Just trying to get 9 holes in after work before dark? Then you will probably play quicker than usual, and probably care less about your score.

The thing that is most frustrating about this discussion is that it's basically you plugging your ears as to other people's reasoning why they don't take as much time as possible to maximize every single shot, and then calling them liars when they say that scoring as absolutely low as possible every single round is not of the utmost importance. In case you haven't noticed, not a single person has sided with your position. 

It's because this is basic common sense, and it's bizarre to see you continue to deny it. People scale how much time they put into things depending on how important it is to them. And for the vast, vast majority of people, golf is a purely recreational activity that is not that important relative to other things in their life. 

If your recreational rounds are so important to you that you play them as if your livelihood depended on it, or as if your place in history in front of millions of people depended on it (the NCAA example), that's fine, but understand you are in a very small minority. 

 

If your recreational rounds are so important to you that you play them as if your livelihood depended on it,

Did you just accuse me of putting words in someone's mouth because I only want to hear what I want to hear? Pot, kettle. Cripes.

I have a question for all of you for whom I've somehow touched a nerve. When you play golf, do you aim toward the hole? I mean, if the score doesn't matter, why not just swipe it along the ground? Hell, you don't even need to pay green fees...you could just go to a municipal park and hit shots for free while enjoying the outdoors with friends.

Also, for you guys who claim to not care about the very object of the game, I have an apparel suggestion for you:

[boogielicious]

I think we all need to take it down a notch in this thread. It should be a discussion and not a finger-pointing exercise. We all have opinions on the subject, but be respectful of other's point of view.