"Putting is a huge part of the game."

[freshmanUTA]

On 3/30/2018 at 2:41 PM, lastings said:

Sorry.  I didn’t know there was a point to this thread.  

Nobody is saying putting doesn’t matter.

But everyone is saying that when someone comes and says “I usually hit 25% of my GIR, but it’s my putting that costs me the strokes and not my ballstriking” they’re wrong, and often clueless as to why it’s wrong.

[Patch]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

That's not how "strokes gained" works.

PGA Tour players take 1.87 putts from 20 feet. On the greens you play, that would probably be as close as 18'.

So if you're comparing your "strokes gained" against a PGA Tour player and you're averaging 20', you may be gaining strokes. If your average is closer than 18' (which it probably is), you're losing strokes putting.

(Note for the pedants: strokes gained is calculated on each shot, not on an average, really - putting strokes gained is not linear.)

As for being old and thus a shorter hitter… Yeah, of course that affects things. But being shorter and older doesn't mean you can't improve your driving or approach shots.

I was just going on averages for my own game. I didn't mean to imply I was comparing it to loss/gain stroke. In reality I don't need loss/gain stats to tell me where I need improvement. 

What I was trying to show was how easy it is for folks to still think putting is more important in terms of easy math. My bad for not being plain enough. Probably best I move on from here. 

[Ernest Jones]

28 minutes ago, iacas said:

It's a small sample size, so I'm not putting a lot of weight on it myself, but…

Actually, the last part of that post isn't a small sample size.

It's not about what you "believe" @MrGolfguy67. There are facts, borne out of millions and millions of shots hit.

You will average close to 2 putts from 20', and so will every PGA Tour player ever. There's not much "Separation Value®" in putting.

Putting is a "huge" part of your score, but it's also a built-in part: everyone is going to average about 28-30 putts per round, period, over a long enough time to get enough of a sample size. You cannot get so good at putting that you make even 50% of your 12-footers, let alone better than that, so there's a limit on how good you can get.

And given how easy the skill is, a lot of people get pretty darn good at putting.

You're operating under some very, very antiquated ways of thinking, @MrGolfguy67, and it starts with how you simply "count putts" without regard for their position, or distance, or the shots that put you in those positions.

I actually agree with @MrGolfguy67, he is absolutely right. 

 

But then again, Happy April 1st. 

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, Ernest Jones said:

I actually agree with @MrGolfguy67, he is absolutely right. 

 

But then again, Happy April 1st. 

Lol! Well I’ll say it again since nobody seemed to think much of it the first time, but it fits @MrGolfguy67 very well:

“You can’t reason someone out of a position that he didn’t reason himself into.”

Damn it. I like that.

[GrandStranded]

49 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Lol! Well I’ll say it again since nobody seemed to think much of it the first time, but it fits @MrGolfguy67 very well:

“You can’t reason someone out of a position that he didn’t reason himself into.”

Damn it. I like that.

There is so much information being given us in this thread. In a weird way, we have @MrGolfguy67 to thank for it. He took a pretty solid bashing based on how he thought this affected his game. Granted, he kept it going for quite a while, but he hasn't posted for days now. I'm enjoying the posts where people ask questions and others take the time to give us a better understanding of all this. I don't understand though why some feel the need to take time out of their day to just take needless shots, or make jokes about someone else. Exactly what is gained by doing this to him? The guy is not only a fellow golfer, but apparently a pretty avid and good one. He's a member of the forum, and I'd bet he's a pretty decent guy who we feel was wrong about something. That's it. Why not give it a rest?  

Edited April 1, 2018 by GrandStranded

[Ernest Jones]

49 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Lol! Well I’ll say it again since nobody seemed to think much of it the first time, but it fits @MrGolfguy67 very well:

“You can’t reason someone out of a position that he didn’t reason himself into.”

Damn it. I like that.

That is indeed a great quote. 

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, GrandStranded said:

The guy is not only a fellow golfer, but apparently a pretty avid and good one.

He shoots in the 80s. I won't define "good" for you, but that doesn't meet my definition.

And @GrandStranded, please just stick to commenting on the topic, not posting meta commentary on the comments and commenters themselves.

We're all adults here. If @MrGolfguy67 is going to make foolish claims, he's going to be called out for it sometimes. @Vinsk's post isn't super "on topic" but it's more on topic than yours, because it speaks to the actual discussion - started (in another topic and moved here to its own thread) by @MrGolfguy67 and his inability to recognize the reason, arguments, etc. others have presented, and his own weak position based only on his "experience."

[GrandStranded]

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

He shoots in the 80s. I won't define "good" for you, but that doesn't meet my definition.

And @GrandStranded, please just stick to commenting on the topic, not posting meta commentary on the comments and commenters themselves.

We're all adults here. If @MrGolfguy67 is going to make foolish claims, he's going to be called out for it sometimes. @Vinsk's post isn't super "on topic" but it's more on topic than yours, because it speaks to the actual discussion - started (in another topic and moved here to its own thread) by @MrGolfguy67 and his inability to recognize the reason, arguments, etc. others have presented, and his own weak position based only on his "experience."

Fair enough. You're right about  me commenting on other posters

[NM Golf]

20 hours ago, iacas said:

You will average close to 2 putts from 20', and so will every PGA Tour player ever. There's not much "Separation Value®" in putting.

Putting is a "huge" part of your score, but it's also a built-in part: everyone is going to average about 28-30 putts per round, period, over a long enough time to get enough of a sample size. You cannot get so good at putting that you make even 50% of your 12-footers, let alone better than that, so there's a limit on how good you can get.

And given how easy the skill is, a lot of people get pretty darn good at putting.

You're operating under some very, very antiquated ways of thinking, @MrGolfguy67, and it starts with how you simply "count putts" without regard for their position, or distance, or the shots that put you in those positions.

See I like that statement, your putting score is "built-in". There is no way to lower your putting score beyond a certain point, it's impossible. Yes putting makes up a great deal of your score, AND IT ALWAYS WILL. No matter how much you practice it, no matter how good you become, there are too many variables, inconstancies in the grass on the putting green etc to make more than a small percentage of putts outside 10 feet.

 

[saevel25]

20 hours ago, iacas said:

You cannot get so good at putting that you make even 50% of your 12-footers, let alone better than that, so there's a limit on how good you can get.

I was curious, so I went and checked out the best putters from 10-15'. The average best looks to be around 40%. The highest value I've seen is near 45%.

That makes sense though, there being a limit to how good someone can get at putting.

[billchao]

11 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I was curious, so I went and checked out the best putters from 10-15'. The average best looks to be around 40%. The highest value I've seen is near 45%.

That makes sense though, there being a limit to how good someone can get at putting.

There's a limit to how good someone can get at anything. The thing with putting is that it's an easy motion with fairly low physical demands, so it's easier for people to get near that limit; that's why it has low Separation Value.

Given the proper resources and motivation, the average golfer can be as good a putter as a PGA Tour pro. The same cannot be said of the long game.

[MrDC]

It's all a huge part of the game, I don't think anyone who plays well will attempt to argue that GIR isn't anything short of the primary mission, the big stat, a good score starts there, but when you see people that can't break 100 3-putt time and again you know it would be huge for them to fix that, and when you see Ian Poulter drain a 20' to force a playoff and then go on to win, that's huge.

[iacas]

49 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I was curious, so I went and checked out the best putters from 10-15'. The average best looks to be around 40%. The highest value I've seen is near 45%.

That makes sense though, there being a limit to how good someone can get at putting.

The problem with ranges like that is that you don't know the distribution, either.

And since @MuniGrit, despite not having a single shred of evidence of his own, doesn't believe that an eight handicapper putting for Dustin Johnson (in a limited-field event that he won by eight) could have still won the event… I'll point out again the above:

22 hours ago, iacas said:

It's a small sample size, so I'm not putting a lot of weight on it myself, but…

Actually, the last part of that post isn't a small sample size.

 

Jordan Spieth nearly won the tournament putting WORSE than a typical 8 handicapper.

[mvmac]

Quote from Scott illustrates you can be a below average putter and have a really solid career.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/masters-2018-whatever-happened-to-adam-scott

Quote

“I just need to get my putting to average,” Scott said. “If I can be a tour-average putter, I think I can win four times a year. I want try to get back to No. 1 in the world before my career is over, and if I set goals like that, the stuff that comes along the way will tick all the boxes.”

 

[rehmwa]

If I have to pick:

• I want a superior short game so I can save par more often
• I want a superior approach game so I have more birdie opportunities

 

 

 

(sorry fans, that's probably about as pithy as I'm capable - I'm a fan of both, but it's pretty clear who's looking to score lower....and I'm purposely ignoring that a good long game also usually gives easier par save scenarios...)

Edited April 2, 2018 by rehmwa

[NM Golf]

2 hours ago, MrDC said:

It's all a huge part of the game, I don't think anyone who plays well will attempt to argue that GIR isn't anything short of the primary mission, the big stat, a good score starts there, but when you see people that can't break 100 3-putt time and again you know it would be huge for them to fix that, and when you see Ian Poulter drain a 20' to force a playoff and then go on to win, that's huge.

If you three-putt that often then LSW would classify your putting as "glaring weakness". Again, improving your putting to a point where you don't three-putt more than a couple times a round is not all that difficult. It's something that could be achieved in considerably less time than one could dramatically improve their ball striking. Why? Because putting isn't all that difficult.

[NJpatbee]

A lot of emotion and strong opinions - I am jumping in late.  I have not read LSW ( I probably should) and have also never been better than a mid-teens HCP golfer.  I never played or practiced enough and it is a great season if I play 20 official rounds.  I am an adequate putter which I practice occasionally at the course.  I am also a 17 HCP and it has very little to do with my putting.   

[iacas]

Jordan gained 10.584 strokes on the field in finishing -16. The contributions of each to that:

• Putting: -30.6%
• Short Game: 20.3%
• Driving: 28.5%
• Approach Shots: 81.8%

It stands out because it's so exceptional.

Poulter: 13.584 total. 2.341 (17.2%) Driving, 7.231 (53.2%) Approach, -0.193 (-1.4%), 4.205 (30.9%)
Hossler: 13.584 total. 4.223 (31.1%) Driving, 1.436 (10.6%) Approach, 1.57 (11.6%) Short Game, 6.355 (46.8%) Putting

Of the three:

• Putting: 15.7%
• Short Game: 10.2%
• Approach Shots: 48.9%
• Driving: 25.6%

Putting and the short game accounted for basically 1/4 of the scoring, while the full swing accounted for about 75%. And remember two things:

• This counts 100 yard shots as "short game," inflating that number and taking away from the Approach category.
• The top of the leaderboard is dominated by good ball strikers (we see that here), and the guys who are at the very top are often the guys with the "hot putter" that week.

See point #2 here:

And of course, @MuniGrit and @MrGolfguy67 would do well to read up on:

Putting is not that "huge" a skill.

Finally, another way of putting it, that expands on something I said before:

• If you hit every shot that first finds the green to inside of three feet, you have 18 strokes built in to your score. Everyone, at every level of play. 18 putts are pre-built in.
• If you hit every shot that first finds the green to eight feet, you have about 27 strokes built in to your score.
• Hit every shot to 33' and you're putting better than an average PGA Tour player to average 36 strokes for the round.

Putting is not a skill that you can get "so good at" that you reduce the number significantly, and doing so - counting putts - is still significantly affected by your ballstriking.

Furthermore, a lot of people don't understand "strokes gained." From 130 yards, if you hit it to 55 feet, you've already lost strokes with your ballstriking, but it's a partial stroke and people don't process that. Meanwhile, if from 55 feet that same golfer three-putts, that is also not a full stroke but a partial one, but people will think they lost a full stroke to their putting.

So I get that it's easy to deceive yourself into thinking that putting is "a huge part of the game."

But it's not. It's a huge part of your score, but again unless every first putt is an eight footer, you've got about 30 strokes built in before you even tee off.