"Putting is a huge part of the game."

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, MrGolfguy67 said:

Sorry but that is absurd. You actually believe that if I, for example, hit my drive 280 yds straight down the middle on a 450 yd par4, I then automatically have a birdie putt. Insanity.

I didn't say that. Not even close.

You're not even reading what's written. You're trying to score cheap points by misreading and mis-stating what I've typed.

2 minutes ago, MrGolfguy67 said:

Like I said before, which was correct then and is still correct, you still have to get the ball in the hole. A good drive down the middle guarantees nothing.

Nobody disputed that.

But anyone can make a 25-foot putt, and PGA Tour players don't make them much more often than 10 handicappers. What they do far, far, far more often than 10 handicappers (and even scratch golfers) is hit the ball really well. Farther, straighter.

Generally speaking, the farther you get from the hole, the more Separation Value® exists. A scratch golfer out-putts the average PGA Tour player 30% of the time.

What they never do is hit the ball better than an average PGA Tour player.

Ballstriking matters significantly more (6x more, give or take) than putting.

---

Here, give this a shot:

What is your answer for Game 1? Game 2?

[GrandStranded]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

I didn't say that. Not even close.

You're not even reading what's written. You're trying to score cheap points by misreading and mis-stating what I've typed.

Nobody disputed that.

But anyone can make a 25-foot putt, and PGA Tour players don't make them much more often than 10 handicappers. What they do far, far, far more often than 10 handicappers (and even scratch golfers) is hit the ball really well. Farther, straighter.

Generally speaking, the farther you get from the hole, the more Separation Value® exists. A scratch golfer out-putts the average PGA Tour player 30% of the time.

What they never do is hit the ball better than an average PGA Tour player.

Ballstriking matters significantly more (6x more, give or take) than putting.

Erik, I am fascinated by this. It really makes sense, especially with the putting (which blows me away). My question is  what I think you said about the value of shots 95 yards and in. As I've gotten older (and still reluctant to move up a tee) I thought those were the most critical shots in terms of importance. But if I'm following you here, your research finds shots from the tee and up to 100 yards have more impact on my scoring?

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, GrandStranded said:

Erik, I am fascinated by this. It really makes sense, especially with the putting (which blows me away). My question is  what I think you said about the value of shots 95 yards and in. As I've gotten older (and still reluctant to move up a tee) I thought those were the most critical shots in terms of importance. But if I'm following you here, your research finds shots from the tee and up to 100 yards have more impact on my scoring?

Really not the topic for this, but… We put "full swing motion" type shots (typically 65+ yards) into the approach shot category. I don't know if your 60-95 yard shots are approach shots, or your third on par fours. If they're your third on par fours, my answer changes depending on whether it's because you're just short these days, or because you're in trouble.

---

I'm awaiting @MrGolfguy67's answers to Game 1 and Game 2.

[MrGolfguy67]

27 minutes ago, iacas said:

I didn't say that. Not even close.

You're not even reading what's written. You're trying to score cheap points by misreading and mis-stating what I've typed.

 

Actually you did say that, i read it multiple times to make sure. 

Also, i am actually reading what is written. I am not "trying to score cheap points by misreading and mis-stating" what you typed. In reality, you have no idea what you are talking about concerning me. Tell yourself whatever you need to in order to make yourself feel good but you really need to stop telling me what i am doing or thinking because you are clueless. I am making valid points that i have found to be true in my experience playing golf. For you to just totally dismiss everything i say is totally out of line. I know what i've done, i know what i've experienced, i know what i know to be fact because i've lived it.

[iacas]

13 minutes ago, MrGolfguy67 said:

Actually you did say that, i read it multiple times to make sure. 

I did not say that if you hit a drive in the fairway you "automatically have a birdie putt." I said that when you hit the ball well, you give yourself birdie putts. Hitting the ball well means hitting the green in regulation and often hitting it close to the hole and thus, a player "hitting the ball well" is "giving himself birdie putts." I didn't say automatically… though if you are missing the greens regularly, I would argue that you're not "hitting the ball well."

13 minutes ago, MrGolfguy67 said:

In reality, you have no idea what you are talking about concerning me.

Sure.

13 minutes ago, MrGolfguy67 said:

Tell yourself whatever you need to in order to make yourself feel good but you really need to stop telling me what i am doing or thinking because you are clueless.

I don't need to do anything to "feel good." I'm sharing information because it's correct and can help golfers. If you're content to plug your ears and hum a tune, please, by all means, continue. I don't care at all. You can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn anything. Someone who has closed their minds to any new information.

13 minutes ago, MrGolfguy67 said:

I am making valid points that i have found to be true in my experience playing golf.

I realize you think you are, but you're not.

Putting is significantly less important than driving and approach shots. You've yet to refute that. The only thing you've done is mis-read things and come up with a scenario where putting seemed to be important. Scenarios like that are a dime a dozen - when researching millions of shots, hundreds of thousands of rounds, etc. the facts lay themselves out.

You're not learning anything new. You're just basically trotting out the age-old and disproven "drive for show, putt for dough" type crap that we know to be false these days.

13 minutes ago, MrGolfguy67 said:

For you to just totally dismiss everything i say is totally out of line.

It's not out of line. You're wrong.

13 minutes ago, MrGolfguy67 said:

I know what i've done, i know what i've experienced, i know what i know to be fact because i've lived it.

Uh huh. Here's my suggestion for your new avatar:

---

What's your answer to the Game 1 and Game 2 questions?

[MrGolfguy67]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

When you hit the ball well (off the tee...), you give yourself birdie putts. 

Fact: You typed the above.  Own it. 

40 minutes ago, iacas said:

It's not out of line. You're wrong.

That's the textbook definition of totally dismissing what i say. Thanks for proving me right.

[iacas]

14 minutes ago, MrGolfguy67 said:

Fact: You typed the above.  Own it. 

No, I didn't type that.

You added an ellipsis. If I try hard enough, I could probably use ellipsis to make you say all types of things you never actually said.

You have two choices:

2 hours ago, iacas said:

When you hit the ball well (off the tee, approach shots), you give yourself birdie putts. Then you don't even have to putt all that well to break par.

Or:

2 hours ago, iacas said:

When you hit the ball well, you give yourself birdie putts. Then you don't even have to putt all that well to break par.

Again… hitting the ball well, pffft, never mind. I'm not going to type out what's common sense and something I already typed out before:

42 minutes ago, iacas said:

I did not say that if you hit a drive in the fairway you "automatically have a birdie putt." I said that when you hit the ball well, you give yourself birdie putts. Hitting the ball well means hitting the green in regulation and often hitting it close to the hole and thus, a player "hitting the ball well" is "giving himself birdie putts." I didn't say automatically… though if you are missing the greens regularly, I would argue that you're not "hitting the ball well."

You're offering nothing to the conversation and your mind is closed.

And you've yet to answer the very simple questions: What's your answer to the Game 1 and Game 2 questions?

14 minutes ago, MrGolfguy67 said:

That's the textbook definition of totally dismissing what i say. Thanks for proving me right.

You've said that putting is important and how you score (paraphrased). I've said that you're wrong about that.

Because you are.

How much do you entertain people who tell you that the earth is flat? How much do you let them prattle on and talk about "their experiences" and a whole bunch of bullshit you know to be wrong before you just say "no, you're wrong, and here are a bunch of places you can read about how badly you're wrong"?

I'm totally dismissing what you're saying because it's totally wrong.

And you've yet to answer the very simple questions: What's your answer to the Game 1 and Game 2 questions?

[HJJ003]

I’m often surprised how many different threads get the discussion like the one that is going on right now. I shouldn’t be surprised by it anymore lol, but some of the arguments used in these debates/discussion still fascinate me. 

[MrGolfguy67]

Here's my answer:

Game 2 - absurd because virtually nobody is ambidextrous and 0% of golfers carry 28 clubs, which would be necessary to pull off this game. I have no idea who would win because i have no idea how good or bad a righty would be hitting lefty. 

Game 1 - the 80s player having to hit all full shots would be at a total disadvantage because they normally play on courses that are 6200 - 6700 yds. A 7000 yd course is above their ability, there's a reason for the several different sets of tees on every course.

[iacas]

Just now, MrGolfguy67 said:

Here's my answer:

Game 2 - absurd because virtually nobody is ambidextrous and 0% of golfers carry 28 clubs, which would be necessary to pull off this game. I have no idea who would win because i have no idea how good or bad a righty would be hitting lefty. 

Game 1 - the 80s player having to hit all full shots would be at a total disadvantage because they normally play on courses that are 6200 - 6700 yds. A 7000 yd course is above their ability, there's a reason for the several different sets of tees on every course.

Fail.

Please leave the site. You're unwilling to open your mind and learn a damn thing.

The answers are obvious to those who understand golf at all, and highlight how relatively unimportant (relatively unimportant - since there are only these four areas of the game, they're all still "important," but relatively, they're ranked/sorted very clearly) the short game and putting are in scoring.

Game 2: If you're a righty, playing your full swings righty would result in the lower score. Significantly lower.

Game 1: The PGA Tour player hitting the full swing shots shoots the lower score. From 7000 yards. From 6000 yards. Doesn't matter.

Both of the "games" illustrate the importance (and difficulty) of the full swing over the short game/putting. I take people on putting lefty all the time, and win more than I lose. Putting is both easier and less important to shooting a lower score than the full swing skills (driving, approach shots).

[Phil McGleno]

@MrGolfguy67-I do not understand what you are not saying. Maybe because you are not actually saying anything.

I will give you a chance to start fresh-If it is not too far off topic. Except the WGC is over so now that is what this discussion is.-Maybe should not win Kickstarter though.

Anyway here you go:

Make a statement and defend it.-It sounds like you think putting is more important than the full swing.-Yes? If so make a statement and defend it.

But be prepared to be shown that you are wrong-And how wrong you are. Because any statement like that is probably going to be wrong.

[MrGolfguy67]

Please leave the site? The fact that i have my own thoughts and opinions is so threatening to you that you just want to get rid of me, totally silence me in effect. Total over reaction. 

I have valid points and i have valid reasons for believing what i believe, you simply don't want to accept that for some reason.

[iacas]

1 minute ago, MrGolfguy67 said:

Please leave the site? The fact that i have my own thoughts and opinions is so threatening to you that you just want to get rid of me, totally silence me in effect. Total over reaction. 

It's not that you have your own "opinions." They're not opinions - they're incorrect facts. Across golfers, putting is the least important of the four skills in golf. Ballstriking - the full swing - is about 6x more important.

Why did I ask you to leave? Because you're close minded, and completely unwilling to even answer a simple set of questions. You're not a threat. You're completely wrong about how golfers score in golf. You won't enjoy your time here. I'm just saving both of us some time.

Am I being a bit of a jerk right now? Yeah. Absolutely. But I would much rather spend my time helping those who are open-minded and willing to learn. But I can't just ignore posts when people say something stupid and/or wrong, as you did, on my site. It's information for which I'm partially responsible. Info on my site. I try to ensure that everyone gets the best, most correct information. "Putting is a huge part of the game" is wrong if you're talking about anything beyond a simple counting of strokes. It's the least important part of the game, of the four (driving, approach shots, short game, putting). It offers the lowest Separation Value® and is the easiest of the skills.

1 minute ago, MrGolfguy67 said:

I have valid points

Then share them! You've yet to do so.

1 minute ago, MrGolfguy67 said:

I have valid points and i have valid reasons for believing what i believe, you simply don't want to accept that for some reason.

Because what you've said so far is WRONG.

Goodness, how much clearer can that be?

[Vinsk]

@MrGolfguy67 Reading your responses is quite painstaking. You know it’s alright to be wrong. Science allows us to progress in our understanding. Technology, data from sources not available in the past. These guys here @iacas,  @mvmac, and so many others are really passionate about golf. They put hours and hours on end teaching all aspects of golf and they  give tons of advice for free! Come on man, your stubbornness is really holding you back from learning something new. 

[GrandStranded]

lots of new (to me) info on ball striking here on thi site tonight.  ***I'm sorry for the mistaken edit here. Happy the original post is seen in the below reply.

Edited March 29, 2018 by GrandStranded

[iacas]

1 minute ago, GrandStranded said:

I'm fairly new to this site, and like I said earlier I'm fascinated by this information and I'm buying into this "importance of ball striking" theory. It makes a lot of sense, even though tonight is the first time I've seen it being discussed. I'm looking forward to learning much more about it.  My question is how have so many people, Dave Pelz, and various other short game and putting gurus, who have made millions stressing the importance of the short game, gone unchallenged all this time? 

They haven't gone unchallenged, but I get what you're saying.

Golfers are bad at understanding partial shots. They miss a putt, they see that as a "lost shot." Never mind that putts of that length are made only 20% of the time… to the golfer, they missed, and it took them two, and so they lost a shot. Never mind that it was for par, and where they really lost more shots was on their tee shot into the trees and their punch out that didn't get anywhere near the green, leaving themselves a 70-yard third shot on a simple par four.

That should show up. It's public.

[MrGolfguy67]

i have shared my valid points, you are just dismissing them. I shouldn't have to repeat myself.

And i am also passionate about golf. Why am i the only one that is being labeled 'close minded' and 'stubborn' for not seeing things your way? Couldn't y'all be given the same labels for not seeing things my way?

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, MrGolfguy67 said:

i have shared my valid points, you are just dismissing them.

Where? IMO you've not shared a valid point. "My experience" is not a valid point. Your experiences have taught you incorrectly.

You've not responded to the questions posed with the two games with a real answer. You've not responded to the chart I showed you from ESC.

6 minutes ago, MrGolfguy67 said:

I shouldn't have to repeat myself.

Neither should I. Yet I've had to ask you to answer the simple "Game" questions several times, and you still have not.

6 minutes ago, MrGolfguy67 said:

And i am also passionate about golf. Why am i the only one that is being labeled 'close minded' and 'stubborn' for not seeing things your way?

Because that's an accurate description of your position.

I can't fathom being passionate about golf and yet so close-minded. You have a chance to learn something here, and instead, you've not demonstrated the slightest bit of interest in doing so.

6 minutes ago, MrGolfguy67 said:

Couldn't y'all be given the same labels for not seeing things my way?

Did you see my comment about the "earth is flat" stuff above?

Your way is the wrong way. Why would we want to see it that way?

I've asked you to make and defend something. I'll ask again. I've made and defended and proven several statements about scoring. Here. In my book. On Twitter. Elsewhere. Your turn.