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"Putting is a huge part of the game."


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My doubles are nearly all 3 jacks. 75% of my first putts are for par.

I am GIR approx 25% so bogey at best with a chip and 2 putts on these - one chip and one putt = par.

My GIRs typically leave a 15 footer or more.

I practice the longer putts to improve my lag putting so as to avoid the 3 putt!

Edited by CR McDivot
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This is all off topic but, It sounds like both golfer a & b are the same one in your scenario.  They just had a bad day one time and a good day the other time. Seriously, you’re unlikely to hit 14

There is so much information being given us in this thread. In a weird way, we have @MrGolfguy67 to thank for it. He took a pretty solid bashing based on how he thought this affected his game. Granted

I just thought of another way to think about this. Consider a 400-yard par four. A PGA Tour pro will average 3.99 on such a hole. Standing on the tee, he'll average 3.99 to play that hole. S

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I dont know if i would call putting a "huge" part of the game but i think being half decent is certainly a big benefit. Putting is a plus for me but i understand that i need to get the ball on the dancefloor in or under regulation to benefit from unleashing my inner "putting god" ;-).

For me i need to focus on the approach shots, anyting from 140 and in, then i have a real chance of scoring well. On the flip side there is no point in having an amazing long/mid/short game if you cant put for toffee. If a good putting game can save a round, a good all round game can make a round.

I remember reading an article in a golf mag that wrote Ben Hogan once said he didnt think putting should even be part of the game.

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I have just as many tap-ins as drives in a round, therefore tap-ins are of equal value to drives.

That's more ridiculous written out than it sounded in my head.

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5 hours ago, CR McDivot said:

My doubles are nearly all 3 jacks. 75% of my first putts are for par.

I am GIR approx 25% so bogey at best with a chip and 2 putts on these - one chip and one putt = par.

My GIRs typically leave a 15 footer or more.

I practice the longer putts to improve my lag putting so as to avoid the 3 putt!

Improving your short game can help make those near GIR into pars, but improving your GIR will make your scores go down. I've been a low as a 10 HC. In those years I was hitting 40+% GIR. My putting has never been a problem. I average 31-32 per round. But I score lower when I hit more greens.

You can work on your putting, but your main focus should be full shots.

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6 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

Improving your short game can help make those near GIR into pars, but improving your GIR will make your scores go down. I've been a low as a 10 HC. In those years I was hitting 40+% GIR. My putting has never been a problem. I average 31-32 per round. But I score lower when I hit more greens.

You can work on your putting, but your main focus should be full shots.

Well a common error @CR McDivot is making is he’s stating 25% GIR (around avg .for 15hcp I think) but he’s claiming the 75% as being nGIR. Doubtful. He’s underestimating how often he two putts but for bogey. Improving putting won’t have near the impact improving that as improving approach shot.

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2 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Well a common error @CR McDivot is making is he’s stating 25% GIR (around avg .for 15hcp I think) but he’s claiming the 75% as being nGIR. Doubtful. He’s underestimating how often he two putts but for bogey. Improving putting won’t have near the impact improving that as improving approach shot.

My doubles are almost always getting on the green in 4 and two putting. Occasionally, I have a three putt, but I still did not have a GIR.

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7 hours ago, CR McDivot said:

OK, we are all entitled to our own perceptions.

But not our own facts.

7 hours ago, CR McDivot said:

How many 1 or less putts did our favorite Irishman have? How many from less than 50% make range?

You can't use one round as proof of anything. It was an exception.

Additionally…

Those two tweets highlight two of the errors in your thinking. First, you're counting putts, when really you have no idea what a world class putter would take from your distances on your greens. Second, you're counting an aberration as if it's a standard thing.

Those 28/39/14/11% numbers for driving/approach/inside 100/putting apply across the PGA Tour, too. Putting is the least important part of the game.

7 hours ago, CR McDivot said:

The Ror's was hot! I was happy to see it.

Yes, it was an aberration.

7 hours ago, CR McDivot said:

Average putting has the potential to account for 36 strokes - Great putting could cut that in half!

Great putting does not have the potential to do that, no, not realistically. Not unless every first putt was from 3' or less.

You're grossly over-estimating how good one can get at putting, and thus, how much you can realistically shave from your score.

Great putters still miss about four out of ten from eight feet. You will never become such a good putter that you make even 85% from 8'. Over one round (as Rory did), you can… but over the longer term, no, absolutely not.

7 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

Putting is a relatively simple motion, that people seem to overemphasize way too much. Bubba has never been a "great" putter.

He isn't. He won with his ballstriking. Like almost every winner does.

The formula on the PGA Tour - and everywhere else - you get into the top five to ten with your ballstriking, and then whoever has the hotter putter that week wins. Generally speaking. You can't "plan" for being a hot putter. You can raise your baseline (Bubba is a slightly worse than average putter, Tiger a better than average putter).

Actually, people love to convince themselves that what Tiger did was putt really well, when the stats reveal that it was - gasp! surprise! - his ballstriking that separated him the most.

7 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

It's not that putting isn't important. It is. But it's really not a huge part of the game. Just because Bubba misses one 12 foot birdie putt... Doesn't mean he's a terrible putter. The make percentage on 12 foot putts on tour: 31%. You're expected to miss 2 out of 3 or almost 7 out of 10 from 12 feet.

Nah. Ball Striking is a "HUGER" Part of The Game, (than putting).

Yup.

7 hours ago, CR McDivot said:

As you can see I am coming from the perspective of a high handicap.

It doesn't matter. You're still wrong. Did you see the chart I posted earlier, and what separates a guy who shoots 80 from a guy who shoots 100 or 90?

Putting was the smallest number.

7 hours ago, CR McDivot said:

Sure, hitting more GIR would help, and I am gradually improving in this area.

Hitting more GIR will help you MORE. Much more.

7 hours ago, CR McDivot said:

However, bringing my putts per round to under 36 (more 1 putts than 3 jacks) has realistically had more effect on my scores than the long game.

It will not over the long haul. Improving putting and the short game is the fastest way to shave a few strokes, but the BIG gains come from improving your ballstriking.

I've never seen a single digit handicapper who is a terrible ballstriker. I have seen terrible putters who are single digit golfers. Putting isn't that important.

6 hours ago, CR McDivot said:

23% GIR is not "most" - more like less than 1/4... but yes I do practice >20 footers. Concentrate mostly on under 10 footers. I am a high handicapper because my approaches are typically near misses with mid to long irons (blame it on my age and only playing 20 or so rounds a year).

Scenario #1 with 36 puts and 25% GIR = +12 Make those missed GIRs one chip and one putt = even!

Scenario #2 all GIR and 36 putts = even. Cut half the two putts to one = -9.

You do realize you'd have to hit all 18 approach shots to EIGHT FEET to be expected to average 1.5 putts (27 total) for that round?

You're thinking about this from a completely unrealistic standpoint. Nobody is going to hit 18 GIR and average 27 putts for the round. Nobody's proximity on GIR is anywhere near 8'. 24' is incredibly good.

6 hours ago, CR McDivot said:

My doubles are nearly all 3 jacks. 75% of my first putts are for par.

If 75% of your first putts are for par… then how's it not obvious that you need to freaking work on giving yourself more birdie putts?

58 minutes ago, billchao said:

I have just as many tap-ins as drives in a round, therefore tap-ins are of equal value to drives.

That's more ridiculous written out than it sounded in my head.

Another good way of looking at it and how stupid it is to count putts.

@CR McDivothttp://lowestscorewins.com/ and https://amzn.to/2IeL6jM. Enjoy.


As much progress as we've made, I sometimes wonder if we won't truly advance until enough old people literally die off so that the proper understanding that we're teaching the younger generation can prevail. Except that some of those younger generations were already indoctrinated by some of the older ones who won't let "drive for show, putt for dough" die. :sigh:

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I'm certainly not an old guy (well maybe...48), but I have said for many years that the "drive for show, putt for dough" line is bulls#i!. If a guy is hitting wedges into greens and I'm hitting a 6 or 7 iron, he's gonna beat me even if he is not a great putter most of the time. I used to play golf quiet a bit with a guy who is now on the Senior tour (and won a couple events on the regular tour) and he would drive it so far past the guys he played with that he had the advantage of usually hitting a short iron (which he hit longer than we did also). He would play all three of us (and we were all low single digit or scratch) and 90% of the time would clean up. He was a good putter but I wouldn't call him a great putter but he was 10 feet  or closer all day and would make enough of those to shoot in the 60's almost every time out. He would occasionally have and off day. If you can hit the ball like that and be a pretty good putter....your gonna get paid.

 

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If you want to count putts…

I shoot 72 and average 31 putts per round. You shoot 94, @CR McDivot (or would from my tees) and average 34 putts.

That’s three of the 22 shots between us. Where are the other 19 coming from?

(You’re going to miss more greens from my tees and this chip a few closer than your hit greens, hence the 36 -> 34. But even at 36 it’s five shots out of 22.)

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I can agree that a great long game will help a golfer shoot lower scores. I also think that a better than average approach game, will enhance one's long game, and that being a good putter will make one's approach game look good. Those three phase of the game are all interconnected with each other. 

I think where discussions deviate from each other, is when the golfer's long game is simply not long enough to qualify for the strokes gained/loss scenario. Sure, being a short hitter will cause more lost strokes statistically. Then, the shorter hitter has to depend on their approach game, and putting game to gain back those strokes. Their short game becomes more important to shooting lower scores, than their long game.

I might be wrong here, but after reading up on this strokes gained/lost scenario, it seems like it is more for the professional ranks than the weekend warrior. In the professional ranks, the strokes gained/loss are against the field for that tournament. In the weekend warrior's mind, they are not playing against the field. The field being other golfers. If anything, they are playing against the course, or at the very least against themselves. To me that explains the thinking that a missed shot, is a lost shot, represented by a whole number. Not a fraction.  

Don't get me wrong. I totally agree the long game is more important than the other phases of the game. If, and only if the golfer's long game is long enough. That's probably the wrong way to look at it, so in my defense, I will label myself one of those old golfers who should die off to advance the game. :-D

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2 minutes ago, Patch said:

might be wrong here, but after reading up on this strokes gained/lost scenario, it seems like it is more for the professional ranks than the weekend warrior. In the professional ranks, the strokes gained/loss are against the field for that tournament. In the weekend warrior's mind, they are not playing against the field. The field being other golfers. If anything, they are playing against the course, or at the very least against themselves. To me that explains the thinking that a missed shot, is a lost shot, represented by a whole number. Not a fraction.  

The average golfer can compare their strokes gained/lost to various handicap levels and thus determine where they personally need the most improvement in order to gain back strokes against a handicap level they are trying to achieve. I used to think in whole numbers too, but I am learning the value of fractional strokes over the long run especially when trying to improve my handicap. 

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21 hours ago, phillyk said:

This is all off topic but, It sounds like both golfer a & b are the same one in your scenario.  They just had a bad day one time and a good day the other time. Seriously, you’re unlikely to hit 14/18 greens and shoot 78 every time. Same with the other guy. He’s unlikely to putt well every time and shoot 67. 

No, lets make it an extreme example. Lets take Tiger and Joe. Tiger is, well, Tiger and Joe has never touched a golf club before. To play a better round, would you rather have Tiger play to the green and have Joe putt, or have Joe hit the green and have Tiger putt?

The guys on the PGA Tour  leaderboards are typically those with the best ball striking that week. The guys in the top 3 are typically those who have been putting the best of those top ball strikers.

Or think of it this way, your ball striking determines your potential scoring range. Your putting that day determines whether you’re on the low side or high side of the average score. 

 

No, lets make it an extreme example. Lets take Tiger and Joe. Tiger is, well, Tiger and Joe has never touched a golf club before. To play a better round, would you rather have Tiger play to the green and have Joe putt, or have Joe hit the green and have Tiger putt?

Interesting thread.. Even if you allow yourself to set aside Erik's astute statistical logic, this one should pretty much end the discussion!

.....and yeah, I've been a drive for show putt for dough guy in the past. Clearly that's false. I don't have to die off iacas!

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I'd say putting well inside of 10' is important- and it is a skill.  Outside of 10', it's down to luck even with a good strike and speed.  My mom, who never plays golf, can still putt a ball in the hole or at least close enough for a tap-in.  Getting from the tee to the green, fugetaboutit.  The biggest difference between a touring pro and us ams is not putting (or even short game for that matter), but rather the long game.  To effectively strike a golf ball long and straight takes a lot of athleticism and coordination.  Tapping a ball on and around the green simply isn't going to affect your game near as much as the other thousands of yards you will cause your ball to traverse in an 18 hole round.

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34 minutes ago, Patch said:

I can agree that a great long game will help a golfer shoot lower scores. I also think that a better than average approach game, will enhance one's long game, and that being a good putter will make one's approach game look good. Those three phase of the game are all interconnected with each other. 

I think where discussions deviate from each other, is when the golfer's long game is simply not long enough to qualify for the strokes gained/loss scenario. Sure, being a short hitter will cause more lost strokes statistically. Then, the shorter hitter has to depend on their approach game, and putting game to gain back those strokes. Their short game becomes more important to shooting lower scores, than their long game.

I might be wrong here, but after reading up on this strokes gained/lost scenario, it seems like it is more for the professional ranks than the weekend warrior. In the professional ranks, the strokes gained/loss are against the field for that tournament. In the weekend warrior's mind, they are not playing against the field. The field being other golfers. If anything, they are playing against the course, or at the very least against themselves. To me that explains the thinking that a missed shot, is a lost shot, represented by a whole number. Not a fraction.  

Don't get me wrong. I totally agree the long game is more important than the other phases of the game. If, and only if the golfer's long game is long enough. That's probably the wrong way to look at it, so in my defense, I will label myself one of those old golfers who should die off to advance the game. :-D

The field for the weekend warrior is everyone with a similar handicap. A lot of that information/stats are gathered with new golf tech (Game Golf, Arccos, etc) and they can derive the strokes gained from that.

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9 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

Putting is not.

Bullshit.

Don't give me that. 

Sorry but I'm entitled to believe what I do, I have valid reasons for doing so. If you don't agree with me then fine, you don't have to be a jackass.

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3 hours ago, billchao said:

I have just as many tap-ins as drives in a round, therefore tap-ins are of equal value to drives.

That's more ridiculous written out than it sounded in my head.

I meant even more ridiculous but I think y'all get my point.

2 minutes ago, MrGolfguy67 said:

Sorry but I'm entitled to believe what I do, I have valid reasons for doing so. If you don't agree with me then fine, you don't have to be a jackass.

Sure. There are people who believe the Earth is flat and I don't hold it against them.

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To everyone reading this thread:

I did not start it, the Lord Master of this site did. He took something I typed, well part of it anyway, he edited it to his liking and made a whole new thread out of it. So when you are responding to this thread you are not responding to MrGolfguy's thread like it will tell you that you are, you are responding to iasac's thread, his master creation that him and only him is allowed to create. Just wanted to get the facts straight on what is going on here.

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56 minutes ago, Patch said:

might be wrong here, but after reading up on this strokes gained/lost scenario, it seems like it is more for the professional ranks than the weekend warrior. In the professional ranks, the strokes gained/loss are against the field for that tournament. In the weekend warrior's mind, they are not playing against the field. The field being other golfers. If anything, they are playing against the course, or at the very least against themselves. To me that explains the thinking that a missed shot, is a lost shot, represented by a whole number. Not a fraction.  

You can gain good perspective. I would agree it is only beneficial to those who want to use it as a metric to validate what they need to be working on.

Lets say they do want to work on stuff. Then this can give them validation that they need to work on other aspects. Lets say they get their short game to be with in 1 stroke of PGA Tour level good, scratch golfer good. How would they know to work on their long game with out a benchmark?

 

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