Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Antneye

Skins Question

16 posts / 3000 viewsLast Reply

Recommended Posts

We recently played a round of skins. Three players: handicaps 12, 16, 22

We got a bit confused so I'm looking for clarification. 

We played it so that the 16 got strokes on 4 holes, and the 22 got 10. Where we got confused was on the 5th handicap hole. The 12 shot bogey, the 14 shot bogey, and the 22 shot double. 

Our math said the 14 had a net par and won the hole, but then we wondered why the 22 wasn't getting a stroke against the 14 because had we been playing just the two of us the hole would have been a push. Our final interpretation was that the hole was a push because the 14 and 22 pushed relative to each other. 

I think we were wrong, but if so it raises the question of whether it is fair that the 22 loses strokes he would have had against the 14.

I hope this makes sense. We are playing again on Thursday and want to get it right. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

13 minutes ago, Antneye said:

We recently played a round of skins. Three players: handicaps 12, 16, 22

We got a bit confused so I'm looking for clarification. 

We played it so that the 16 got strokes on 4 holes, and the 22 got 10. Where we got confused was on the 5th handicap hole. The 12 shot bogey, the 14 shot bogey, and the 22 shot double. 

Our math said the 14 had a net par and won the hole, but then we wondered why the 22 wasn't getting a stroke against the 14 because had we been playing just the two of us the hole would have been a push. Our final interpretation was that the hole was a push because the 14 and 22 pushed relative to each other. 

I think we were wrong, but if so it raises the question of whether it is fair that the 22 loses strokes he would have had against the 14.

I hope this makes sense. We are playing again on Thursday and want to get it right. 

What 14?  Your first sentences says three players, 12, 16, 22.  Your description is right, the 12 gets zero strokes, the 16 gets 4, and the 22 gets 10.

Even so, let's assume you do indeed have a fourth player who plays off 14.  He gets strokes on Handicap holes 1 and 2.  He would not get a stroke on hole 5, so his gross bogey would be net bogey, and everyone would push.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

4 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

What 14?  Your first sentences says three players, 12, 16, 22.  Your description is right, the 12 gets zero strokes, the 16 gets 4, and the 22 gets 10.

Even so, let's assume you do indeed have a fourth player who plays off 14.  He gets strokes on Handicap holes 1 and 2.  He would not get a stroke on hole 5, so his gross bogey would be net bogey, and everyone would push.

 

Dang it, I screwed up the example. 

 

Let's try it again. 

12, 16, 22 are the players. 

3rd handicap hole so the 16 and 22 each get a stroke against the 12. But the 22 is entitled to a stroke against the 16 as well. 

 

The gross scores are:

12 bogey

16 bogey

22 double bogey

How do we score the skin? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

If it's net skins on the "3" handicap hole, the 16 gets net par and the 22 gets net bogey.  So the 16 guy won the hole.  When you are playing skins and are applying handicap strokes, dot the scorecard where each golfer gets a stroke (as in the 22 guy gets a dot on handicap holes 1-10).  It's easy to see and keep track of.

EDIT : "But the 22 is entitled to a stroke against the 16 as well." This is not true.  The handicap strokes are allocated against the course, not against the players, if that makes sense.

Edited by phillyk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

27 minutes ago, Antneye said:

Dang it, I screwed up the example. 

 

Let's try it again. 

12, 16, 22 are the players. 

3rd handicap hole so the 16 and 22 each get a stroke against the 12. But the 22 is entitled to a stroke against the 16 as well. 

 

The gross scores are:

12 bogey

16 bogey

22 double bogey

How do we score the skin? 

@phillyk is right, the 16 wins that hole.  22 does indeed get 6 strokes from 16, but they come the holes with the handicap numbers 5 to 10.  On handicap holes 1 to 4, they both get one stroke, so they play even.  On handicap holes 11 to 18, neither gets a stroke, so they play even.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

here's a different wrinkle on this topic.  A player is a 9 handicap, B is a 16, C is a 17. playing off a's handicap has B getting 7 strokes on 7 hardest holes. likewise player C gets 8 strokes on 8 hardest holes.  but what about the  stroke handicap difference between player B & C.  should it be on hardest hole as that is how handicap strokes are usually  allocated, or on 7th hardest hole, because that is where C would be getting a stroke relative A's handicap? 

I think it should be on hardest hole. what do you think?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, jbrown413 said:

here's a different wrinkle on this topic.  A player is a 9 handicap, B is a 16, C is a 17. playing off a's handicap has B getting 7 strokes on 7 hardest holes. likewise player C gets 8 strokes on 8 hardest holes.  but what about the  stroke handicap difference between player B & C.  should it be on hardest hole as that is how handicap strokes are usually  allocated, or on 7th hardest hole, because that is where C would be getting a stroke relative A's handicap? 

I think it should be on hardest hole. what do you think?

Are you talking about skins within a 3-player group?  How exactly would you do this?

In my view, there are only two ways to make this work out.  Either each player gets all their strokes, or the players B and C play off the low ball.  Of those two, the second is the option I think is best.  This new "wrinkle" isn't really different from the previous question.  What you are describing would be appropriate if the 3 players are playing a match against each of the other players, 3 separate matches.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

This is a constant debate but we can solve both issues at once. Give everyone their strokes.

A 4 handicap "should" be likely to bogie the 4 hardest holes. A 10 should bogie the 10 hardest and an 18 should bogie all 18.

If you give EVERYONE their strokes. It is Even for 1-4, 5-10 the 10 and 18 get a stroke and 11-8 only the 18 pops. It makes more more pushes but makes the math easier.

 

JAT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

4 minutes ago, criley4way said:

This is a constant debate but we can solve both issues at once. Give everyone their strokes.

A 4 handicap "should" be likely to bogie the 4 hardest holes. A 10 should bogie the 10 hardest and an 18 should bogie all 18.

If you give EVERYONE their strokes. It is Even for 1-4, 5-10 the 10 and 18 get a stroke and 11-8 only the 18 pops. It makes more more pushes but makes the math easier.

No. That’s not what you do. It actually flips the way handicapping works so it’s wrong.

Handicap hole 1 is the hole where the higher handicap player needs a shot the most.

Your method would give an 18 playing a 9 strokes on holes 10-18. The holes he needs a stroke least.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

1 hour ago, iacas said:

No. That’s not what you do. It actually flips the way handicapping works so it’s wrong.

Handicap hole 1 is the hole where the higher handicap player needs a shot the most.

Your method would give an 18 playing a 9 strokes on holes 10-18. The holes he needs a stroke least.

I fail to see the logic in giving strokes on the hardest holes. 

If everyone bogies the holes they should and pars the holes they should you get 18 pushes if everyone gets a stroke on their handicap holes. All net par. If the same is applied but you give strokes on the differential 1-x then the High handicap wins all the hard holes and loses all the easy holes?

 

It should come out the same just by a different route. Why is that "wrong"?

If you are playing medal then it doesn't matter and you give X strokes.

Edited by criley4way

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Depends on if I'm the lowest handicap in the group or the highest handicap in the group. If I'm the lowest handicap, I want all of my strokes. If I'm the highest handicap, I only want the difference in strokes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

37 minutes ago, criley4way said:

I fail to see the logic in giving strokes on the hardest holes.

Please re-read what I wrote, then.

It's pretty logical (not my post, the actual system).

Again, handicap holes 1-9 are the holes where a higher handicap most needs the strokes. Handicap holes 10-18 are the nine holes a higher handicap player least needs the strokes.

So if you give the 9 handicap nine shots, and the 18 handicap eighteen, the higher handicap player gets the nine shots on holes 10-18 (handicap index) where they least need them. They should get them on holes 1-9, where they most need them.

It's a skins game, so it's more like match play than just "total score." For a total score stroke play event (only), strokes aren't even assigned. They're just subtracted from (or added to) your score.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

2 hours ago, criley4way said:

I fail to see the logic in giving strokes on the hardest holes. 

If the Handicap Rankings are done properly, the number 1 hole is the hole where there is the greatest difference in scores between a low handicap player and a higher handicap.  That's what @iacas is referring to when he says the low-number holes are where the higher handicap needs a stroke the most.  It is not always the hardest holes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

On 4/3/2018 at 10:16 PM, Antneye said:

Dang it, I screwed up the example. 

 

Let's try it again. 

12, 16, 22 are the players. 

3rd handicap hole so the 16 and 22 each get a stroke against the 12. But the 22 is entitled to a stroke against the 16 as well. 

 

The gross scores are:

12 bogey

16 bogey

22 double bogey

How do we score the skin? 

Wrong, the 22 is only entitled to one stroke.  Not one against the 12 and one against the 16.

In your example, the 12 will have a net bogey, the 16 a net par and the 22 a net bogey.  The 16 handicap wins 🙄

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, jbrown413 said:

here's a different wrinkle on this topic.  A player is a 9 handicap, B is a 16, C is a 17. playing off a's handicap has B getting 7 strokes on 7 hardest holes. likewise player C gets 8 strokes on 8 hardest holes.  but what about the  stroke handicap difference between player B & C.  should it be on hardest hole as that is how handicap strokes are usually  allocated, or on 7th hardest hole, because that is where C would be getting a stroke relative A's handicap? 

I think it should be on hardest hole. what do you think?

This doesn't make any sense.  On the 8th toughest hole, only the 17 handicap gets a stroke.  If you want the 17 handicap to have a second stroke on the hardest hole, then he is not entitled to one on the 8th hardest hole.  And at that point, why is he entitled to two strokes over the 9 handicap

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  



  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Affiliates

    SuperSpeed
    TourStriker PlaneMate
    Golfer's Journal
    FlightScope Mevo
    Use the code "iacas" for 10% off Mevo
  • Posts

    • Great stuff, been following this thread every now and then out of interest, but the stuff goes way over my head usually. 😄 In the gym swing your lead shoulder looks to be in much more stronger position, in the right pic it looks collapsed/hugging yourself. Do you think this has alot to do with how you land/brace against your lead side now? I feel like I personally just slide on top of my lead leg/hip and all the torgue I've created in backswing disappears and my upper body has nothing to rotate against, it just floats in space waiting for clubheads momentum to pull it through. I guess it's time to start skating again, please keep posting these updates and the stuff you do in the gym, it's priceless!  
    • Another par 5 and sorry this is again more like "Hole of the week", but the good and bad shots seem to come in groups these days. This was only birdie of the round, althought had really good tries on few holes. Course was pretty wet since we have had so much rain for like 2 weeks. This is quite tricky to open further than 200-210m as it would require very accurate fading shot for righty. Hit a solid 4 iron off the tee (Red arrow) which stopped ~200m off the tee. I was in perfect position to attack close to the green with 3 wood, but I was still bit paralyzed off hitting 2 tops on hole two and I just wanted to get more good contacts to build the confidence. Measured that the left side fairway bunker was 210m from me and at first I was thinking of going with 5 iron to middle of fairway. Out of nowhere I managed to analyze the situation more; the flag was tucked behind the greenside bunker (bit more right and down of where it's in the picture I think) and there's alot of downhill from by spot. Realized with 5 iron I was in danger of reaching the left hand fairway bunker if I pull the shot and ontop of that middle of fairway shot would leave me tricky wedge over the bunker to narrow green. Quickly switched to 6 iron and aimed it to left side of fairway so I'd have better angle to attack the pin without having to go over the greenside bunker. The shot ended up being pretty much perfect (Blue arrow) and I joked with guys in my group that it was the first wise golf shot of my career. Third shot with wedge was lacking bit of commitment and pulled it to the left side of green and ended up with really long (9-10m if I'd have to guess) right to left breaking putt. Ended up draining it in and said it was longest of my career, the guys in group laughed that's alot of "career first" shots on one hole. 😄 The putt was probably greatest I've ever had, but still I would pick the second shot with 6 iron as my shot of the week.
    • Yes for sure. Have been going back and forth between that feel and the pushing from the inside of the feet. When I "see" myself do it, I'm seeing my belt buckle get closer to my thigh but my thigh isn't rotating to my right. Priority for me is changing how the right leg/hip load otherwise I won't be able to create any force into the lead side or create any stretch going back.  But I do have to work on both. For right now the left hip feel is similar to the right with the inside of the left foot pushing away, almost doing a skater stride or floor board slide. Gets me to loads the leg and "post up" into it. Brian mentioned that when he tests my right hip, it moves fine. He thinks I don't tilt/rotate IR because my left hip basically can't deal with the result of the transitional "fall" you get when the hips are tilted properly. So my brain/body figured out that I should rotate more level with the right to accommodate my crappy left. Not sure I buy into it 100% but I think there is something to it. Even though my right side can work fine, I have to train it to do the correct thing because it's use to rotating more ER, rotating too far and with not much tilt. This was yesterday, doing these for the first time. Cable pulls with my foot on an incline which forces it pronated. Compliments the corrective exercises I'm doing a couple times a day with holding the side shift lunges (holding on to a barbell or sink, shifting right/left with the foot pronated/knee flexed inside the foot and hold for 5-6 breaths). Then a few swings after, slower backswing into a fast downswing, taking advantage of turning on all those muscles from the cable pulls. Really focusing on pressing out with the inside part of the foot and belt buckle rotating into the hip, never seen my impact look like this.    
    • I have this book and read it before really getting into Moe Norman/Graves Golf. This is a nice book in which I think Mr. Lavern gives good details/history of Moe traveling between Canada and down to Florida at/near end of competitive career. Mr. Lavern gives details regarding the student/friend relationship with Moe playing/practicing. The book is a very good easy read in my opinion and a great introduction to Moe Norman. Would recommend this book before getting into more modern interpretations/teachings today regarding how those teachings believe how/what Moe did during his swing.  Not to get off topic but I think this book is kinda like  Moe teaching a friend/pupil by perception/feel through demonstration (1970's/80's) vs how Todd Graves learned through a different type relationship > had an established organization and some technology through Natural Golf based demonstrations/teaching models at a later period in time (well past Moe's prime / 1990's). Not taking anything away from Graves, I just choose to look at the topic/teachings of Moe Norman through a timeline perspective. This book is before the Graves/Natural Golf timeline that most people today know Moe Norman by. 
    • You and I have a lot in common.😁 I also don't like Seve...nor Bubba, Bryson, .... I can tolerate Cry baby Spieth. I also don't like Player, Zach J, Jimmy Walker, Tom Watson....I know there are others.😁😁 On the LPGA I don't like Wie, Creamer, Stacy, Christina Kim, Kerr
  • TST Blog Entries

  • Blog Entries

  • Today's Birthdays

    1. Apoc81
      Apoc81
      (39 years old)
    2. crow esquivel
      crow esquivel
      (43 years old)
    3. easyjay39402
      easyjay39402
      (76 years old)
    4. JonathanJones
      JonathanJones
      (29 years old)

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...