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Antneye

Skins Question

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We recently played a round of skins. Three players: handicaps 12, 16, 22

We got a bit confused so I'm looking for clarification. 

We played it so that the 16 got strokes on 4 holes, and the 22 got 10. Where we got confused was on the 5th handicap hole. The 12 shot bogey, the 14 shot bogey, and the 22 shot double. 

Our math said the 14 had a net par and won the hole, but then we wondered why the 22 wasn't getting a stroke against the 14 because had we been playing just the two of us the hole would have been a push. Our final interpretation was that the hole was a push because the 14 and 22 pushed relative to each other. 

I think we were wrong, but if so it raises the question of whether it is fair that the 22 loses strokes he would have had against the 14.

I hope this makes sense. We are playing again on Thursday and want to get it right. 

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13 minutes ago, Antneye said:

We recently played a round of skins. Three players: handicaps 12, 16, 22

We got a bit confused so I'm looking for clarification. 

We played it so that the 16 got strokes on 4 holes, and the 22 got 10. Where we got confused was on the 5th handicap hole. The 12 shot bogey, the 14 shot bogey, and the 22 shot double. 

Our math said the 14 had a net par and won the hole, but then we wondered why the 22 wasn't getting a stroke against the 14 because had we been playing just the two of us the hole would have been a push. Our final interpretation was that the hole was a push because the 14 and 22 pushed relative to each other. 

I think we were wrong, but if so it raises the question of whether it is fair that the 22 loses strokes he would have had against the 14.

I hope this makes sense. We are playing again on Thursday and want to get it right. 

What 14?  Your first sentences says three players, 12, 16, 22.  Your description is right, the 12 gets zero strokes, the 16 gets 4, and the 22 gets 10.

Even so, let's assume you do indeed have a fourth player who plays off 14.  He gets strokes on Handicap holes 1 and 2.  He would not get a stroke on hole 5, so his gross bogey would be net bogey, and everyone would push.

 

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4 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

What 14?  Your first sentences says three players, 12, 16, 22.  Your description is right, the 12 gets zero strokes, the 16 gets 4, and the 22 gets 10.

Even so, let's assume you do indeed have a fourth player who plays off 14.  He gets strokes on Handicap holes 1 and 2.  He would not get a stroke on hole 5, so his gross bogey would be net bogey, and everyone would push.

 

Dang it, I screwed up the example. 

 

Let's try it again. 

12, 16, 22 are the players. 

3rd handicap hole so the 16 and 22 each get a stroke against the 12. But the 22 is entitled to a stroke against the 16 as well. 

 

The gross scores are:

12 bogey

16 bogey

22 double bogey

How do we score the skin? 

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If it's net skins on the "3" handicap hole, the 16 gets net par and the 22 gets net bogey.  So the 16 guy won the hole.  When you are playing skins and are applying handicap strokes, dot the scorecard where each golfer gets a stroke (as in the 22 guy gets a dot on handicap holes 1-10).  It's easy to see and keep track of.

EDIT : "But the 22 is entitled to a stroke against the 16 as well." This is not true.  The handicap strokes are allocated against the course, not against the players, if that makes sense.

Edited by phillyk

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27 minutes ago, Antneye said:

Dang it, I screwed up the example. 

 

Let's try it again. 

12, 16, 22 are the players. 

3rd handicap hole so the 16 and 22 each get a stroke against the 12. But the 22 is entitled to a stroke against the 16 as well. 

 

The gross scores are:

12 bogey

16 bogey

22 double bogey

How do we score the skin? 

@phillyk is right, the 16 wins that hole.  22 does indeed get 6 strokes from 16, but they come the holes with the handicap numbers 5 to 10.  On handicap holes 1 to 4, they both get one stroke, so they play even.  On handicap holes 11 to 18, neither gets a stroke, so they play even.

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here's a different wrinkle on this topic.  A player is a 9 handicap, B is a 16, C is a 17. playing off a's handicap has B getting 7 strokes on 7 hardest holes. likewise player C gets 8 strokes on 8 hardest holes.  but what about the  stroke handicap difference between player B & C.  should it be on hardest hole as that is how handicap strokes are usually  allocated, or on 7th hardest hole, because that is where C would be getting a stroke relative A's handicap? 

I think it should be on hardest hole. what do you think?

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7 hours ago, jbrown413 said:

here's a different wrinkle on this topic.  A player is a 9 handicap, B is a 16, C is a 17. playing off a's handicap has B getting 7 strokes on 7 hardest holes. likewise player C gets 8 strokes on 8 hardest holes.  but what about the  stroke handicap difference between player B & C.  should it be on hardest hole as that is how handicap strokes are usually  allocated, or on 7th hardest hole, because that is where C would be getting a stroke relative A's handicap? 

I think it should be on hardest hole. what do you think?

Are you talking about skins within a 3-player group?  How exactly would you do this?

In my view, there are only two ways to make this work out.  Either each player gets all their strokes, or the players B and C play off the low ball.  Of those two, the second is the option I think is best.  This new "wrinkle" isn't really different from the previous question.  What you are describing would be appropriate if the 3 players are playing a match against each of the other players, 3 separate matches.

 

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This is a constant debate but we can solve both issues at once. Give everyone their strokes.

A 4 handicap "should" be likely to bogie the 4 hardest holes. A 10 should bogie the 10 hardest and an 18 should bogie all 18.

If you give EVERYONE their strokes. It is Even for 1-4, 5-10 the 10 and 18 get a stroke and 11-8 only the 18 pops. It makes more more pushes but makes the math easier.

 

JAT

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4 minutes ago, criley4way said:

This is a constant debate but we can solve both issues at once. Give everyone their strokes.

A 4 handicap "should" be likely to bogie the 4 hardest holes. A 10 should bogie the 10 hardest and an 18 should bogie all 18.

If you give EVERYONE their strokes. It is Even for 1-4, 5-10 the 10 and 18 get a stroke and 11-8 only the 18 pops. It makes more more pushes but makes the math easier.

No. That’s not what you do. It actually flips the way handicapping works so it’s wrong.

Handicap hole 1 is the hole where the higher handicap player needs a shot the most.

Your method would give an 18 playing a 9 strokes on holes 10-18. The holes he needs a stroke least.

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1 hour ago, iacas said:

No. That’s not what you do. It actually flips the way handicapping works so it’s wrong.

Handicap hole 1 is the hole where the higher handicap player needs a shot the most.

Your method would give an 18 playing a 9 strokes on holes 10-18. The holes he needs a stroke least.

I fail to see the logic in giving strokes on the hardest holes. 

If everyone bogies the holes they should and pars the holes they should you get 18 pushes if everyone gets a stroke on their handicap holes. All net par. If the same is applied but you give strokes on the differential 1-x then the High handicap wins all the hard holes and loses all the easy holes?

 

It should come out the same just by a different route. Why is that "wrong"?

If you are playing medal then it doesn't matter and you give X strokes.

Edited by criley4way

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Depends on if I'm the lowest handicap in the group or the highest handicap in the group. If I'm the lowest handicap, I want all of my strokes. If I'm the highest handicap, I only want the difference in strokes.

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37 minutes ago, criley4way said:

I fail to see the logic in giving strokes on the hardest holes.

Please re-read what I wrote, then.

It's pretty logical (not my post, the actual system).

Again, handicap holes 1-9 are the holes where a higher handicap most needs the strokes. Handicap holes 10-18 are the nine holes a higher handicap player least needs the strokes.

So if you give the 9 handicap nine shots, and the 18 handicap eighteen, the higher handicap player gets the nine shots on holes 10-18 (handicap index) where they least need them. They should get them on holes 1-9, where they most need them.

It's a skins game, so it's more like match play than just "total score." For a total score stroke play event (only), strokes aren't even assigned. They're just subtracted from (or added to) your score.

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2 hours ago, criley4way said:

I fail to see the logic in giving strokes on the hardest holes. 

If the Handicap Rankings are done properly, the number 1 hole is the hole where there is the greatest difference in scores between a low handicap player and a higher handicap.  That's what @iacas is referring to when he says the low-number holes are where the higher handicap needs a stroke the most.  It is not always the hardest holes.

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On 4/3/2018 at 10:16 PM, Antneye said:

Dang it, I screwed up the example. 

 

Let's try it again. 

12, 16, 22 are the players. 

3rd handicap hole so the 16 and 22 each get a stroke against the 12. But the 22 is entitled to a stroke against the 16 as well. 

 

The gross scores are:

12 bogey

16 bogey

22 double bogey

How do we score the skin? 

Wrong, the 22 is only entitled to one stroke.  Not one against the 12 and one against the 16.

In your example, the 12 will have a net bogey, the 16 a net par and the 22 a net bogey.  The 16 handicap wins 🙄

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15 hours ago, jbrown413 said:

here's a different wrinkle on this topic.  A player is a 9 handicap, B is a 16, C is a 17. playing off a's handicap has B getting 7 strokes on 7 hardest holes. likewise player C gets 8 strokes on 8 hardest holes.  but what about the  stroke handicap difference between player B & C.  should it be on hardest hole as that is how handicap strokes are usually  allocated, or on 7th hardest hole, because that is where C would be getting a stroke relative A's handicap? 

I think it should be on hardest hole. what do you think?

This doesn't make any sense.  On the 8th toughest hole, only the 17 handicap gets a stroke.  If you want the 17 handicap to have a second stroke on the hardest hole, then he is not entitled to one on the 8th hardest hole.  And at that point, why is he entitled to two strokes over the 9 handicap

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