Did Jordan Spieth Improve his Lie on 18 in Round 1?

[iacas]

20 minutes ago, b101 said:

I went with inconclusive, but can see what you mean. Had the rules not been changed, would you have phoned this in?

If I thought it was a penalty I'd have called the appropriate people regardless, just as I did with Tiger.

I think that move was mostly PR. I think very few of the "calls" they ever took were from random spectators who somehow knew who to call.

6 minutes ago, mchepp said:

For me it is no worse than what Kenny Perry did in 2009 at the FBR (Phoenix).

Kenny Perry's actions were way worse and IMO definitely breached the rules.

6 minutes ago, mchepp said:

In 2009, the feedback from most everyone was that what Perry did was typical for most golfers and not a penalty.

I don't remember it that way.

But a post on about page 4 says the votes were "33 no cheat" and "27 yes cheat" in this old topic:

I pointed out that the Rules of Golf aren't really determinable by "vote" but you're talking about the opinions of golfers, not the opinions of only those really familiar with the Rules.

[Zeph]

Perry's case is a lot worse. There's no doubt in my mind that he broke a rule there. If you demonstrate that move outside of a tournament and without any names involved, I can't see anyone saying that's okay.

[Fourputt]

2 hours ago, Zeph said:

What is lightly and how does one measure it? Are there any decisions on this? I couldn't find any.

The way I see it, you can break the rule in two ways.

1. By lightly soling the club multiple times.
2. By forcibly soling the club once or multiple times.

In the case of Spieth it's quite clear how many times he lets the clubhead down, but we can't tell by how much force. As long as you don't touch the ground, you can do it as much as you want, but when you let it touch the grass each time is when you get into a more dodgy situation.

I don't think the video evidence is enough to make some conclusion on what Spieth did, but for the sake of discussion, I think it's interesting.

Although this decision refers to play in a water hazard, it contains a defacto definition of "grounding" as it applies in the overall game.

Quote

13-4/8

 

When Club Touches Ground in Grass in Water Hazard

Q.If a player's ball lies in a water hazard, when is his club in tall grass considered to be touching the ground in the water hazard, in breach of Rule 13-4b?

A.When the grass is compressed to the point where it will support the weight of the club (i.e., when the club is grounded).

If the player does something to increase that compression in any way, he is in breach, and I feel that PGA Tour players commonly get away with this one.  It doesn't matter if that is his normal routine.  In the fairway it really doesn't make any difference, but there are often lies in the rough where it can be significant, and I've seen it before where a player pretty clearly "helped" the club rest a bit more heavily than gravity would seem to have done.  

I believe that Spieth did improve his lie, that he pressed down as he addressed the ball, but I also think that the video is inconclusive.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Fourputt

[Rulesman]

5 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

The way I read the rule, simplified is that

1.  The player may not improve the lie of the ball by:

2.  Pressing the club down on the ground

EXCEPT the player incurs no penalty if he grounds the club lightly when addressing the ball.

Grounding the club in the rough inevitably leads to at least a very small improvement in the lie, but is specifically given a pass.  He obviously sets the club down several times, and we can't tell how lightly or firmly he presses down.  I agree with inconclusive.

Once upon at time a decision relating to ball in long grass said " a club is considered grounded when the grass is compresses to the point where it will support the weight of the club"

Would that qualify as "lightly" ? And how "long" is long?

[iacas]

I’m just gonna get a really big, heavy club and address my ball with it any time I’m in the rough.

You’re still obligated not to improve your lie.

[DaveP043]

4 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

Once upon at time a decision relating to ball in long grass said " a club is considered grounded when the grass is compresses to the point where it will support the weight of the club"

Would that qualify as "lightly" ? And how "long" is long?

That definition is contained in Decision 13-4/8, regarding grounding a club in long grass in a hazard, which @Fourputt quoted just before your post.  I can't tell how lightly or firmly he presses down, so I can't conclusively determine whether he exceeded what he's allowed to do.  Do you have a a clearer determination that he pressed down, and so should be penalized?  

[Shorty]

At least he didn't do the Gary Player routine with a 3 wood and then change to a short iron.

 

[Rulesman]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

That definition is contained in Decision 13-4/8, regarding grounding a club in long grass in a hazard, which @Fourputt quoted just before your post.  I can't tell how lightly or firmly he presses down, so I can't conclusively determine whether he exceeded what he's allowed to do.  Do you have a a clearer determination that he pressed down, and so should be penalized?  

It was 18-2b/3 I seem to remember

[Phil McGleno]

So you guys-Some of you- are saying that if i have some delicate flowers behind my ball or something that cannot support the weight of my hybrid-That I can just let my hybrid smash them down so they do not get between my clubhead and my ball and that is okay even though I have very obviously and dramatically improved my lie?

I do not think that is true-I think that you can sole your club but not to the point of improving your lie beyond some subjective threshold. Move a little grass that will rebound back to a similar shape-OK. Smoosh it down like with some flowers or something? Not okay.

You can sole your club and clear out dew-To argue against myself. But you can not sole your club all around your ball to remove excess dew.

And what if like Gary Player I take out a fairway wood and ground my club and then play a 7-iron because the hole is 170 yards away and I was probably never gonna hit my 5W or even my 7W anyway?

[freshmanUTA]

7 hours ago, iacas said:

He soles the club close to directly behind the ball, so if that area is improved, his lie and area of swing is improved.

I would assume that if the grass is moved on the backswing that it is not a breach of the rules? The video is definitely inconclusive, but I think if you were in person you may end up think differently after inspecting after the shot. But who is to say it wasnt the swing that caused the grass to be padded. Either way I'm voting inconclusive. These golf rules man.....

[Fourputt]

6 hours ago, Phil McGleno said:

So you guys-Some of you- are saying that if i have some delicate flowers behind my ball or something that cannot support the weight of my hybrid-That I can just let my hybrid smash them down so they do not get between my clubhead and my ball and that is okay even though I have very obviously and dramatically improved my lie?

I do not think that is true-I think that you can sole your club but not to the point of improving your lie beyond some subjective threshold. Move a little grass that will rebound back to a similar shape-OK. Smoosh it down like with some flowers or something? Not okay.

You can sole your club and clear out dew-To argue against myself. But you can not sole your club all around your ball to remove excess dew.

And what if like Gary Player I take out a fairway wood and ground my club and then play a 7-iron because the hole is 170 yards away and I was probably never gonna hit my 5W or even my 7W anyway?

Unless your ball lies in a hazard, you are allowed to ground your club.  If that results in slightly depressing the grass or other vegetation, then you are still allowed to do it as long as the ball doesn't move, and you don't press any harder than just letting the club rest there.  In most cases, briefly resting your club on grass does not result in improving your lie, because the grass will usually spring back as soon as you start your backswing.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Fourputt

[boogielicious]

If the Gary Player technique is allowed, then what's the point of having rough at all? Rough is supposed to be penal. If you are allowed to bring out clippers and  a roller (sarcasm) to improve your lie, then the penalty is reduced.

[DaveP043]

15 hours ago, Phil McGleno said:

So you guys-Some of you- are saying that if i have some delicate flowers behind my ball or something that cannot support the weight of my hybrid-That I can just let my hybrid smash them down so they do not get between my clubhead and my ball and that is okay even though I have very obviously and dramatically improved my lie?

 

8 hours ago, Fourputt said:

Unless your ball lies in a hazard, you are allowed to ground your club.

The way I read the rule, the word "However..." signifies that grounding your club is an limited exception to the prohibition on improving your lie.  You can't bend anything that is growing, yet grounding your club in the rough (or in wildflowers) will always bend some of the grass or other vegetation.  Lightly grounding your club is specifically allowed.  I agree with @Phil McGleno, there's some kind of subjective limit to what you can do, I'm not sure exactly where that line is.

[chspeed]

19 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

 

The way I read the rule, the word "However..." signifies that grounding your club is an limited exception to the prohibition on improving your lie.  You can't bend anything that is growing, yet grounding your club in the rough (or in wildflowers) will always bend some of the grass or other vegetation.  Lightly grounding your club is specifically allowed.  I agree with @Phil McGleno, there's some kind of subjective limit to what you can do, I'm not sure exactly where that line is.

Agreed. The "however" allows that some improvement of the lie may happen when you "ground your club lightly", and that you will not incur a penalty in that case.

I do think it is about the "lightly" - contrary to what @iacas said - and not about the lie improvement. What lightly means is subjective, and its my opinion that the reason this type of behavior happens all the time on the tour (as someone said) is precisely because it is hard to call.

[Wally Fairway]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

 

The way I read the rule, the word "However..." signifies that grounding your club is an limited exception to the prohibition on improving your lie.  You can't bend anything that is growing, yet grounding your club in the rough (or in wildflowers) will always bend some of the grass or other vegetation.  Lightly grounding your club is specifically allowed.  I agree with @Phil McGleno, there's some kind of subjective limit to what you can do, I'm not sure exactly where that line is.

 

1 hour ago, chspeed said:

Agreed. The "however" allows that some improvement of the lie may happen when you "ground your club lightly", and that you will not incur a penalty in that case.

I do think it is about the "lightly" - contrary to what @iacas said - and not about the lie improvement. What lightly means is subjective, and its my opinion that the reason this type of behavior happens all the time on the tour (as someone said) is precisely because it is hard to call.

I agree that grounding your club is allowed, and that means lightly; which is subjective. And that is why I showed the videos of shot routines, because if it is the same grounding that you do on other shots IMO that has to lead to a conclusion that there isn't an improvement.
Because someone could take an ultra-technical stance and say that they thought any movement of grass around the ball (either in the fairway or the rough) could be deemed to improve the lie.

Also, just like backstopping (which is a worse offense, IMO), there is likely little effort on tour to call out peers for excessive grounding.

[jlbos83]

From my viewing of it, it looked liked he never even let the full weight of the club reach the ground.  The up and down motion, what little there was, actually seemed to be keeping weight off the ground.  addressed the ball, then stepped back, and come back in I would be much more suspicious.  I didn't see anything that looked like more than addressing the ball.  So I voted no.  I could buy inconclusive, since with angles and foreshortening almost any video view is inconclusive!

[iacas]

3 hours ago, Wally Fairway said:

I agree that grounding your club is allowed, and that means lightly; which is subjective. And that is why I showed the videos of shot routines, because if it is the same grounding that you do on other shots IMO that has to lead to a conclusion that there isn't an improvement.

That doesn't show that. What it shows is that it's his habit. A habit doesn't mean it isn't leading to an improvement in the lie.

Plus, as I already pointed out, you can improve the lie on the tee (legally), and also that in the fairway you could press down and likely not improve your lie - it's quite different than in the rough.

3 hours ago, Wally Fairway said:

Because someone could take an ultra-technical stance and say that they thought any movement of grass around the ball (either in the fairway or the rough) could be deemed to improve the lie.

I don't think anyone's doing that here. Nobody's saying that every blade of grass must be treated like the grains of sand in a bunker and must remain untouched or unmoved until the stroke.

3 hours ago, Wally Fairway said:

Also, just like backstopping (which is a worse offense, IMO), there is likely little effort on tour to call out peers for excessive grounding.

I agree with that.

[bkuehn1952]

On 4/7/2018 at 1:03 AM, Fourputt said:

Unless your ball lies in a hazard, you are allowed to ground your club.  If that results in slightly depressing the grass or other vegetation, then you are still allowed to do it as long as the ball doesn't move, and you don't press any harder than just letting the club rest there.  In most cases, briefly resting your club on grass does not result in improving your lie, because the grass will usually spring back as soon as you start your backswing.

This explanation is how I look at this issue.  Well stated @Fourputt. "Lightly grounding" means to me allowing the club to rest on the turf/vegetation without applying any pressure other than that of the club's own weight.  No pressure should be intentionally added by the player, no matter how slight.  And for Mr. Player and those who want to run too far with this idea, I would say the "light grounding" should also be brief, not several minutes. 

As to Jordan Spieth's actions, it is not clear to me whether he crossed a theoretical line.  Inconclusive.  His standard pre-shot routine appears to include some amount of pressing down with several groundings.  It is possible he gets a slightly improved lie in longer grass via this routine.  Since no one on the Tour seems to mind, perhaps my standards are too strict.

Edited April 9, 2018 by bkuehn1952
his not he