Jump to content
IGNORED

Did Jordan Spieth Improve his Lie on 18 in Round 1?


iacas
Note: This thread is 1998 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Jordan's Improved Lie  

58 members have voted

  1. 1. Did Jordan Spieth "improve his lie" (Rule 13-2) in the video?

    • Yes
      4
    • No
      29
    • It's Inconclusive
      25


Recommended Posts

I voted "no", and here is why. Several years ago, a player was grounding his club behind the ball. As he would ground his club, the ball would move up an down. The ball did not turn even s little bit. It just road the grass up and down. It was filmed by the TV cameras in a very clear, up close way. 1000s of arm chair officials called it in as a violation.

The talking heads brought in a rules official who explained it was not a rules violation because the ball never changed position. It simply road up, and down on the grass. In other words the grass underneath moved, but the ball never moved from it's position on the grass. The ball would have to rotate from it's resting position on the grass to be a violation. 

The shot was also brought up at the post round meet with media. When asked, the player said the same thing as the rules official. He also added that it was no big deal, as all the players do it from time to time. I believe his exact words were "we all do it". 

I believe the player was Sergio Garcia, but I might be wrong. It was some years ago.

In the video above, I can't see the ball being moved, or changing position. Hence my vote of "no". 

  • Like 1

In My Bag:
A whole bunch of Tour Edge golf stuff...... :beer:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

8 minutes ago, Patch said:

I voted "no", and here is why. Several years ago, a player was grounding his club behind the ball. As he would ground his club, the ball would move up an down. The ball did not turn even s little bit. It just road the grass up and down. It was filmed by the TV cameras in a very clear, up close way. 1000s of arm chair officials called it in as a violation.

The talking heads brought in a rules official who explained it was not a rules violation because the ball never changed position. It simply road up, and down on the grass. In other words the grass underneath moved, but the ball never moved from it's position on the grass. The ball would have to rotate from it's resting position on the grass to be a violation. 

The shot was also brought up at the post round meet with media. When asked, the player said the same thing as the rules official. He also added that it was no big deal, as all the players do it from time to time. I believe his exact words were "we all do it". 

I believe the player was Sergio Garcia, but I might be wrong. It was some years ago.

In the video above, I can't see the ball being moved, or changing position. Hence my vote of "no". 

You seem to be talking about a different rule. 18-2 is about moving a ball.

The thread is about 13-2,  improving the lie.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


1 hour ago, Patch said:

I voted "no", and here is why. Several years ago, a player was grounding his club behind the ball. As he would ground his club, the ball would move up an down. The ball did not turn even s little bit. It just road the grass up and down. It was filmed by the TV cameras in a very clear, up close way. 1000s of arm chair officials called it in as a violation.

The talking heads brought in a rules official who explained it was not a rules violation because the ball never changed position. It simply road up, and down on the grass. In other words the grass underneath moved, but the ball never moved from it's position on the grass. The ball would have to rotate from it's resting position on the grass to be a violation. 

The shot was also brought up at the post round meet with media. When asked, the player said the same thing as the rules official. He also added that it was no big deal, as all the players do it from time to time. I believe his exact words were "we all do it". 

I believe the player was Sergio Garcia, but I might be wrong. It was some years ago.

In the video above, I can't see the ball being moved, or changing position. Hence my vote of "no". 

Just for your information, if the ball moves up or down, it has changed position and is a breach of 18-2, even if it still lies in the same nest of grass.  Vertical movement is still moving under the rules. Only if after moving down, the ball then returns to the same place where it was before the movement, can the player escape the penalty.

Edited by Fourputt

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

On 4/9/2018 at 5:03 PM, Patch said:

I voted "no", and here is why. Several years ago, a player was grounding his club behind the ball. As he would ground his club, the ball would move up an down. The ball did not turn even s little bit. It just road the grass up and down. It was filmed by the TV cameras in a very clear, up close way. 1000s of arm chair officials called it in as a violation.

The talking heads brought in a rules official who explained it was not a rules violation because the ball never changed position. It simply road up, and down on the grass. In other words the grass underneath moved, but the ball never moved from it's position on the grass. The ball would have to rotate from it's resting position on the grass to be a violation. 

The shot was also brought up at the post round meet with media. When asked, the player said the same thing as the rules official. He also added that it was no big deal, as all the players do it from time to time. I believe his exact words were "we all do it". 

I believe the player was Sergio Garcia, but I might be wrong. It was some years ago.

In the video above, I can't see the ball being moved, or changing position. Hence my vote of "no". 

I can't remember who said this either, but I distinctly remember a pro admitting the ball does "move" in the rough when they address it. I know mine often does, in thick rough you really have to address the ball at least 3-4 inches behind it, or hover the club, to NOT move the ball. I rarely see pros hovering or addressing far behind so I assume there is some movement taking place in the rough, though I doubt it is helping them in most cases. 

Edited by Braivo

- Mark

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

On ‎4‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 5:03 PM, Patch said:

I voted "no", and here is why. Several years ago, a player was grounding his club behind the ball. As he would ground his club, the ball would move up an down. The ball did not turn even s little bit. It just road the grass up and down. It was filmed by the TV cameras in a very clear, up close way. 1000s of arm chair officials called it in as a violation.

It isn't about the ball moving. It's about less grass being behind the ball now because the golfers has flattened it down.

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
 fasdfa dfdsaf 

What's in My Bag
Driver; :pxg: 0311 Gen 5,  3-Wood: 
:titleist: 917h3 ,  Hybrid:  :titleist: 915 2-Hybrid,  Irons: Sub 70 TAIII Fordged
Wedges: :edel: (52, 56, 60),  Putter: :edel:,  Ball: :snell: MTB,  Shoe: :true_linkswear:,  Rangfinder: :leupold:
Bag: :ping:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

For what its worth I also think Mr Spieth played the rules very well at The Open last year when he took that drop behind the bus on the practice fairway. He kind of said to all the officials "this is the line" from on top of the sand dune and none of them checked. I reckon he got a good deal from that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Reading the rule, looking at his actions - inconclusive.

I thought intent would have been in there, but no. 

Ping G400 Max 9/TPT Shaft, TEE EX10 Beta 4, 5 wd, PXG 22 HY, Mizuno JPX919F 5-GW, TItleist SM7 Raw 55-09, 59-11, Bettinardi BB39

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
33 minutes ago, Mr. Desmond said:

I thought intent would have been in there, but no. 

Intent is in fewer places than most golfers seem to think.

  • Like 1

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I guess his name would have to be Patrick Reed to get called on that.

  • Like 1

:ping: G25 Driver Stiff :ping: G20 3W, 5W :ping: S55 4-W (aerotech steel fiber 110g shafts) :ping: Tour Wedges 50*, 54*, 58* :nike: Method Putter Floating clubs: :edel: 54* trapper wedge

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • 5 months later...
On 4/6/2018 at 8:58 AM, iacas said:

Seriously asking: how is that relevant? If Lexi "typically" marks the ball to the side and puts it nearly an inch away… that's okay too? Of course not. Habit isn't relevant if it's breaching the rules.

Habit is relevant in this scenario. Imagine you're on the teeing ground and you do precisely what he did in the video. Did you improve your lie? Did you alter the conditions of the area in any way to give yourself an advantage? No way no how. So you can't reasonably assume that if Spieth does this sort of motion before every shot that he's breaking the rules on every shot.So you can't reasonably assume that if Spieth does this motion before this shot that he's breaking the rules on this shot.

“I have a tip that can take five strokes off anyone’s golf game. It’s called an eraser.” - Arnold Palmer
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dynatour Titanium Matrix Driver, Top Flite 3W, 4HY, 5HY, 6,7,8,9 irons,PW, Ping Eye2 Gorge Lob Wedge, Top Flite Putter

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Administrator
13 minutes ago, ejm1994 said:

Habit is relevant in this scenario. Imagine you're on the teeing ground and you do precisely what he did in the video. Did you improve your lie? Did you alter the conditions of the area in any way to give yourself an advantage? No way no how. So you can't reasonably assume that if Spieth does this sort of motion before every shot that he's breaking the rules on every shot.So you can't reasonably assume that if Spieth does this motion before this shot that he's breaking the rules on this shot.

Yes you can. A breach is a breach, habitual or not.

And in the teeing area you can improve your lie.

  • Like 1

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

59 minutes ago, iacas said:

Yes you can. A breach is a breach, habitual or not.

And in the teeing area you can improve your lie.

I do apologize. You must have missed the part where I mentioned that you cannot reasonably assume that Spieth's motion is a breach of any rule.

Even if it technically breached a rule (it did not), his motion gave him what advantage?

The entire point of rules in sports is to keep a player from gaining an advantage in an unfair way. Spieth did not gain any advantage by doing the motion he did.

“I have a tip that can take five strokes off anyone’s golf game. It’s called an eraser.” - Arnold Palmer
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dynatour Titanium Matrix Driver, Top Flite 3W, 4HY, 5HY, 6,7,8,9 irons,PW, Ping Eye2 Gorge Lob Wedge, Top Flite Putter

Link to comment
Share on other sites


30 minutes ago, ejm1994 said:

The entire point of rules in sports is to keep a player from gaining an advantage in an unfair way. Spieth did not gain any advantage by doing the motion he did.

No. That is not how it works.

30 minutes ago, ejm1994 said:

I do apologize. You must have missed the part where I mentioned that you cannot reasonably assume that Spieth's motion is a breach of any rule.

Even if it technically breached a rule (it did not), his motion gave him what advantage.

As @iacas stated: A breach is a breach. One doesn’t decide if the breach gave an advantage or not. A rule is a rule. And a beach of that rule is a breach.

  • Like 1

:ping: G25 Driver Stiff :ping: G20 3W, 5W :ping: S55 4-W (aerotech steel fiber 110g shafts) :ping: Tour Wedges 50*, 54*, 58* :nike: Method Putter Floating clubs: :edel: 54* trapper wedge

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

2 hours ago, ejm1994 said:

The entire point of rules in sports is to keep a player from gaining an advantage in an unfair way. 

The entire point of rules (ie penalties) in golf is to keep a player from gaining a potential advantage in an unfair way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


1 hour ago, Rulesman said:

The entire point of rules (ie penalties) in golf is to keep a player from gaining a potential advantage in an unfair way.

@ejm1994 this makes a difference. If a player carries 15 clubs and never once touched that extra club, did he gain an advantage? No. Is it a penalty? Yes.

:ping: G25 Driver Stiff :ping: G20 3W, 5W :ping: S55 4-W (aerotech steel fiber 110g shafts) :ping: Tour Wedges 50*, 54*, 58* :nike: Method Putter Floating clubs: :edel: 54* trapper wedge

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Note: This thread is 1998 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    TourStriker PlaneMate
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-15%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope.
  • Posts

    • I kind of like this interpretation especially if you think about it the unplayable rule would probably put you in a better spot.  using back on the line releief.  
    • I did not realize that, I was thinking a more traditional golf club.  
    • Thanks for the feedback. @StuM, we are a "club without real estate" so no facilities or pro. We have a membership of around 185 players and we only play together as a group at our tournaments, which are held at public access courses. A group of us setup the tournaments, collect the money and dole out the prizes.
    • In general, granting free relief anywhere on the course isn't recommended.  Similarly, when marking GUR, the VSGA and MAPGA generally don't mark areas that are well away from the intended playing lines, no matter how poor the conditions.  If you hit it far enough offline, you don't necessarily deserve free relief.  And you don't have to damage clubs, take unplayable relief, take the stroke, and drop the ball in a better spot.
    • If it's not broken don't fix it. If you want to add grooves to it just because of looks that's your choice of course. Grooves are cut into putter faces to reduce skid, the roll faced putter is designed to do the same thing. I'm no expert but it seems counter productive to add grooves to the roll face. Maybe you can have it sand-blasted or something to clean up the face. Take a look at Tigers putter, its beat to hell but he still uses it.     
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...