Jump to content

52 posts in this topic Last Reply

Recommended Posts

38 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

The Fried Egg, where I go for all my architecture takes, had a good article on the problems with 11 (and other holes, too). If you want to see a little more of what I'm saying, then I would recommend reading it: http://www.friedegg.co/golf-courses/augusta-national-changes

I think you're way wrong about Augusta being too dependent on putting. Year after year it's the great ball strikers winning here. Look at the bad putters that have won here recently: Bubba, Sergio, Adam Scott. Rory isn't a good putter and he was in the mix. Spieth has been an awful putter this year, and he was in the mix. But all of those players are premium ball strikers. You need to putt well, sure, but it's not a putting contest.

To get birdies on any hole other than the par 5s, you have to hit your spot, especially on the approach. And that's great - that's how it's supposed to me. I don't like when holes make you hit one spot on the drive and then one spot on the on the green to avoid a bogey. I don't think 11 had a birdie on it all weekend. That's not great.

What tour course does not favor the good ball strikers? It's the basic price of entry for a top 10. Period. But when they are all striking well (as they obviously would be if in contention) the lucky/hot putter wins. At Augusta, more so than other places. Meh.  

I thought the greens monger way too many defensive putts. They were forced to die everything in - even the damn 6 footers. And then you still can't get it to stop in some places. Woods' 3-putt from 10 feet or so yesterday after a phenomenal recovery approach on 7th a good case in point. Most places that's a birdie or at worst a ho-hum par. It shouldn't be that hard. Only time they were hitting a confident putt is uphill. Kinda takes away from good ball striking in some cases. 

I think Jordan (haven't looked at SG) had a better ball striking week than Reed. Anyway, I am not a fan of putting in general so I guess I am a bit biased.

BTW, thanks for friedegg the link. Will check it out.:-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Want to hide this ad? Register for free today!

13 hours ago, GolfLug said:

I thought the greens monger way too many defensive putts. They were forced to die everything in - even the damn 6 footers. And then you still can't get it to stop in some places. Woods' 3-putt from 10 feet or so yesterday after a phenomenal recovery approach on 7th a good case in point. Most places that's a birdie or at worst a ho-hum par. It shouldn't be that hard. Only time they were hitting a confident putt is uphill. Kinda takes away from good ball striking in some cases. 

I think Jordan (haven't looked at SG) had a better ball striking week than Reed. Anyway, I am not a fan of putting in general so I guess I am a bit biased.

I understand what you're saying, but I think that places more of a premium on ball striking. Augusta forces you to be ultra precise with your approaches. If you miss your spot, you'll have to be ultra defensive with your putts. Take 9 for example. If you hit the correct tier, you have a relatively flat putt to the hole. If you miss above the hole, you'll have to be defensive with your putt. But you can miss below the tier and still have a good chance at par with a good putt. 10 is similar - you execute a precise approach and you get an uphill putt that you can be aggressive with. If you leave your approach above the hole, you have to be defensive. It's a difficult place to putt if you miss your approach shot, yes, but it's not that hard if you can hit a very precise shot.

These aren't just great ball strikers winning this tournament. It's the elite ball strikers that win this tournament. Tiger and Phil are two of the best iron players of all time, which is why they have 7 jackets between them. Bubba is an incredible iron player. Spieth is, too. Adam Scott, Sergio. These aren't just players that go driver-wedge on every hole. They're the guys that can put a 7 iron on a plate when they're on. I don't think this places too much emphasis on putting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

37 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

I don't think this places too much emphasis on putting.

It helps when you drain a few putts. The winners tend to give themselves easier putts, that is for sure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

3 hours ago, DeadMan said:

I understand what you're saying, but I think that places more of a premium on ball striking. Augusta forces you to be ultra precise with your approaches. If you miss your spot, you'll have to be ultra defensive with your putts. Take 9 for example. If you hit the correct tier, you have a relatively flat putt to the hole. If you miss above the hole, you'll have to be defensive with your putt. But you can miss below the tier and still have a good chance at par with a good putt. 10 is similar - you execute a precise approach and you get an uphill putt that you can be aggressive with. If you leave your approach above the hole, you have to be defensive. It's a difficult place to putt if you miss your approach shot, yes, but it's not that hard if you can hit a very precise shot.

These aren't just great ball strikers winning this tournament. It's the elite ball strikers that win this tournament. Tiger and Phil are two of the best iron players of all time, which is why they have 7 jackets between them. Bubba is an incredible iron player. Spieth is, too. Adam Scott, Sergio. These aren't just players that go driver-wedge on every hole. They're the guys that can put a 7 iron on a plate when they're on. I don't think this places too much emphasis on putting.

I am not saying it puts to much emphasis on putting... I am saying it puts emphasis on defensive putting (3 putt avoidance) in too many instances, because if you miss the spot you are not just giving up on a birdie, but you are super worried about a 3 putt even from a normal ho-hum 2 putt range like 25 feet. I just don't think it should be THAT exacting. We have US opens for that. Just an opinion. 

BTW, 7 iron on a plate? lol... Must be a big plate. Just kidding..:-P. So ok, I know what you mean't, but c'mon they ain't that good. They don't even hit greens more than 70% of the time. 

On a separate note, I completely stand corrected about Hole 11. The tree addition on the right middle part of fairway darn near eliminates the slinging draw approach that could be considered scoring. Mostly just risk and not much reward (kinda how I feel about putting at Augusta). So, yeah, I don't like the hole as much anymore. 

Does anybody know how to get SG stats for just the Masters? I googled around but couldn't. I am super curious as to how Reed rose to the top this week.   

 

Edited by GolfLug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

26 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

I am not saying it puts to much emphasis on putting... I am saying it puts emphasis on defensive putting (3 putt avoidance) in too many instances, because if you miss the spot you are not just giving up on a birdie, but you are super worried about a 3 putt even from a normal ho-hum 2 putt range like 25 feet. I just don't think it should be THAT exacting. We have US opens for that. Just an opinion.

I think what @DeadMan is saying - and if he isn't, I will in my own words - is that the guys who are on, the guys who win, aren't having to putt "defensively" all that often because they're not out of position all that often.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Then similarly we shouldn't consider tiny fairways and tight overhanging tree ridden shutes as much of a penal hurdle for these elite ball strikers.    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

2 hours ago, iacas said:

I think what @DeadMan is saying - and if he isn't, I will in my own words - is that the guys who are on, the guys who win, aren't having to putt "defensively" all that often because they're not out of position all that often.

Yes. And I'd prefer defensive putts if you miss your spot as opposed to impossible putts. Augusta, generally, gives you a small opening for birdie, a wide opening for a par, but it's also penal if you hit it in the wrong spots. The problem is that holes like 7 and 11 is that they've made it so there's very little chance for a birdie, and too easy of a chance for bogey (or worse, if it's 11). It's too much like US Opens for my taste because you're playing mindless golf with little opportunity to make a birdie. And every little mistake is punished with a bogey. I like courses that give you birdies if you play perfectly, but still give you the chance for pars if you aren't quite perfect.

2 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

Then similarly we shouldn't consider tiny fairways and tight overhanging tree ridden shutes as much of a penal hurdle for these elite ball strikers.    

It's not, which is why you only see elite ball strikers competing at this course. If you give players more options off the tee, you'll see more winners that aren't just elite ball strikers. Erin Hills last year, for example, had all types of players competing. Brian Harman isn't going to compete at Augusta, but he competed at Erin Hills.

Just to emphasize this point: this is a minor quibble. Augusta is a great course. But it could be better with some minor tweaks to a few holes. And that's what makes it, from a purely design perspective, not the best course in America.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

This should be a fairly easy conversation.
How do you feel about ANGC, PBGC and say Oakmont CC vs. Erin Hills, Chambers Bay and Whistling Straits?

Would you feel different about the new courses if you knew that Hagen, Hogan, Palmer and/or Nicklaus had won on them, that the courses had to be made longer or changed to accommodate todays length off the tee?

Part of the allure of historic courses, in particular related to tour events is that you can remember Watson chipping in on #17 at Pebble, or Jack's 1-iron, Tigers chip in on #16 at Augusta, Johnny Miller shooting a 63 on Sunday at Oakmont. And the courses in The Open Championship rotation are all remembered by who has won on them.

There are many courses without the publicity and prestige, take Crystal Downs (the top rated course in Michigan) it is a private club that doesn't get much publicity outside of being included in some lists. But it is hard to get onto the course to play, and it is very out of the way. So unless you are a golf course architecture junkie it is likely you've never heard of it.
BTW it was ranked #31 in the world by Golf Digest in 2016, though it is not listed in the 2018 top 100 rankings; and  #12 in the 2017-18 Golf DIgest 2top 100 courses in America rankings

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

22 hours ago, DeadMan said:
  • 11 is also an abomination. Hit this tiny fairway and then bail out right to avoid the pond.

 

This, 1000x over.

I get it.  I know what Hogan said about the 11th green.

Seems dumb to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

3 hours ago, Wally Fairway said:

 

There are many courses without the publicity and prestige, take Crystal Downs (the top rated course in Michigan) it is a private club that doesn't get much publicity outside of being included in some lists. But it is hard to get onto the course to play, and it is very out of the way. So unless you are a golf course architecture junkie it is likely you've never heard of it.
BTW it was ranked #31 in the world by Golf Digest.

I have heard of it and years ago naively  tried to get on it by just calling.

Completely off topic; I know they are 100 percent in their right to do what they please and I am sure they have their reasons which I will never understand, but f**k exclusivity 7 days a week. 

There's gotta be ways to share treasure like that.

Sorry, had to get it off my chest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I love Augusta National. When you go there the course is the attraction, I can hardly remember which players I saw, but I can recall every hole in all their beauty. But I do have one quibble, re Sergio's little episode at 15. Ok he should have been smart enough to see that the green was so quick, and the hole was so far forward, and the bank so shaved of grass that the shot he played was too ambitious. But, that bank is ridiculous. Surely some healthy grass would not be out of place to catch the errant backspinner like on 13 for example which caught Reed's ball.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I think it would.  Its grounds are gorgeous, its location pretty top notch, and Augusta National has incrementally modified the course over the years to reflect changes in PGA player statistics.  You hear many, many of the players, of all ages, express how special this particular major is to them.  I still say it's the greatest managed, televised, and entertaining sports event. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Augusta National was 20 years old and never hosted a major tournament it would not be considered "hallowed ground" for obvious reasons. We connect with the course because of our exposure to it and its rich history.

Without the Masters Tournament, it would be like Pine Valley: a beautiful and very exclusive golf course I'll never be able to play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

On 4/9/2018 at 9:02 AM, saevel25 said:

Would it be maintained as such if it wasn't that Masters?

Look at old photo's from the 60's. It wasn't the pristine course it is today.

Look at old photo's from any Tour course from the 60's, same thing! There have been new turf grasses developed, and new mowers, herbicides, pesticides and fertilizers developed. New drainage and irrigation systems as well, and Augusta can afford every one of them!

And someone mentioned exclusivity. That's why members pay for memberships. There's a course not 10 miles away that I can't get on unless I want to pay through the nose to play in a charity outing. It's verrrrry exclusive! Do I begrudge them? No! They have the money and they have their club.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I dont think so. The course looks stunning during tournament week but like others have said it isnt like that the rest of the year. Take the bunkers for instance, they fill them with quartz so they are nice and white but remove it after the event and put the bog standard sand back in.

The grass is painted with dye during the event and one thing i learned is that Augusta National is next to a main road so the sound of birds tweeting on tv is added in to cover the road noise.

I think most (if not all) major venues are tarted up for the event. I know Carnoustie is. My uncle once played there after he open and his lasting impression was that although the course is the same layout the pro's play it experience is anything but. He asked where the nice white sand was and the green keeper said they ship it in for the tournament and take it away straigth after.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

39 minutes ago, RussUK said:

I dont think so. The course looks stunning during tournament week but like others have said it isnt like that the rest of the year. Take the bunkers for instance, they fill them with quartz so they are nice and white but remove it after the event and put the bog standard sand back in.

The grass is painted with dye during the event and one thing i learned is that Augusta National is next to a main road so the sound of birds tweeting on tv is added in to cover the road noise.

I think most (if not all) major venues are tarted up for the event. I know Carnoustie is. My uncle once played there after he open and his lasting impression was that although the course is the same layout the pro's play it experience is anything but. He asked where the nice white sand was and the green keeper said they ship it in for the tournament and take it away straigth after.

Why would any course go through the trouble to ship in and then back out again a ton or two of sand every year (Augusta) or few years (Carnoustie)? 

Even with the money and prestige to be able to... who would be willing to? And for what reason? To ‘stick’ it to the highly exclusive membership or exorbitantly high price paying public? 

This doesn’t make sense to me. 

Obviously, I’m not suggesting that these courses are kept in major championship shape perpetually... but changing out the sand JUST for TV and the pros, and then changing it BACK, just to have to do it all over again? I don’t believe this is done. 

And if it is done... I can not understand why in the world it is done. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

45 minutes ago, sofingaw said:

Why would any course go through the trouble to ship in and then back out again a ton or two of sand every year (Augusta) or few years (Carnoustie)? 

Even with the money and prestige to be able to... who would be willing to? And for what reason? To ‘stick’ it to the highly exclusive membership or exorbitantly high price paying public? 

This doesn’t make sense to me. 

Obviously, I’m not suggesting that these courses are kept in major championship shape perpetually... but changing out the sand JUST for TV and the pros, and then changing it BACK, just to have to do it all over again? I don’t believe this is done. 

And if it is done... I can not understand why in the world it is done. 

It's done for primarily TV. When a major tournament is being played the organisers dont want their event to look sub standard. What looks better, the standard beige sand against the green or the expensive ground up whiter than white quartz against the green?

And yes, i agree, to you and me it doesnt make sense. But we dont stand to receive a cut of the broadcast revenue. So while you dont beilve it is done, at many courses it unfortunately is. The money made from tv revenue's more than offset the cost of putting in better bunker sand. Its simply removed and the stored standard sand put back in after the tournament.

Re the Masters, BBC commentator Ken Brown spoke about the quartz they use "for the tournament" due to its contracting colour against the grass. Its called Pine Spruce. I have done a little more research and it looks like at Augusta they keep the Quartz in as it is supplied by a local quarry. Re Carnoustie, that info came first hand so i know that is correct, bonkers but correct.

Edited by RussUK
More research

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Here's a pic from Golf Digest of Augusta National in the summer. Not as pretty as when the Masters is on. Also shows the white "sand" still in place so my extra checks seem correct.

Augusta-National-Summer.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...