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iacas

Speed from the Arms in the Golf Swing

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32 minutes ago, hoselpalooza said:

would you like to make a friendly wager that i can't or don't "push off" with the inside of my trail foot during transition? i have access to boditrak and would be happy to share the pattern data. 🙂 

I've done more to study the pressures and forces in the golf swing than 99% of anyone in golf. Furthermore, I've seen studies where they hook electrodes up to humans executing the golf swing. The muscles in the trail leg don't do much of anything.

In the video you cited, Sean Foley says the pelvis and glute drive through. That's not the "leg."

Try this: 1) fully extend your arm. 2) put your hand against a wall. 3) push off from that wall using your arm. You can't do it because… your arm is already fully extended. Just like your trail knee is almost fully extended in the backswing.

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I agree that pressure is applied to the ball of the right foot for a very brief moment during weight transfer... this is brief activation of the gastrocnemius and possibly a little vit of soleus muscle.  Weight transfer may add a tiny amount of speed, but it is primarily to ensure that the bottom of your swing is now moved toward the target so you don't chunk it.  The power doesn't come from the right calf contracting forcefully, but the right calf is active briefly during the weight transfer.

 

Screenshot_2019-05-05-18-48-57.png

Screenshot_2019-05-05-18-49-07.png

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If your right heel is off the ground, or your right foot can slip backward, those are signs that your right leg isn't doing much PUSHING. Were it pushing, your heel wouldn't be lifting and your foot wouldn't be so light on the ground it can slip out behind you.

But that's the last post on the legs, as the topic title says… the topic here is "speed from the ARMS in the golf swing." Except for a bit from Mike McLoughlin, let's get back to that now, please.

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Here is a photo with an iron.  The heel is slightly raised, but look at hiw quiet/relaxed the lower body is and how stressed/flexed the upper body is.  Notice how this is milliseconds before impact.  Speed comes from the upper body and a little from the core.

Screenshot_20190606-202156~2.png

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I think we have to be careful posting still photos and "feels" to describe what is actually happening.

Since this is off topic I'll respond here,

Spoiler

If you want to hit it well you wouldn't want to push off the trail foot. On the backswing you're applying some vertical force up the right leg and then you basically unweighting the right foot as you "fall" onto the lead side.

Here's a good example of what good players do. Note how the force vector decreases as the players moves towards the end of the backswing and into transition. 

 

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, mvmac said:

I think we have to be careful posting still photos and "feels" to describe what is actually happening.

Since this is off topic I'll respond here,

  Hide contents

If you want to hit it well you wouldn't want to push off the trail foot. On the backswing you're applying some vertical force up the right leg and then you basically unweighting the right foot as you "fall" onto the lead side.

Here's a good example of what good players do. Note how the force vector decreases as the players moves towards the end of the backswing and into transition. 

 

 

 

 

Great videos 👍

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17 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Martin Hall getting it all wrong....

Yeah, because he's letting himself swivel. Nobody's saying the arms "floating in space" would contribute power, but the arms acting off a stable platform provide the majority of the power.

For most people anyway.

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Hi guys this is a very interesting topic that no two sides will agree on! Me personally don't think it matters if you get your speed from the arms or the body as long has you leave the hands out of it. The hands and or wrist are DEATH to the golf swing. My personal swing thought is the club head follows my hand path all the way to the finish. Obviously this does not happen,just a swing thought of mine. Try it out and let me know what you all think.

 

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21 hours ago, Ryno Martin said:

Hi guys this is a very interesting topic that no two sides will agree on! Me personally don't think it matters if you get your speed from the arms or the body as long has you leave the hands out of it.

Don’t you think sufficient evidence was presented to show that a significant amount of speed comes from the arms? I think it’s fair to say that those people who say they feel their arms are passive are in fact using their arms much more than they think. 
 

Not trying to be condescending but we’re interested in what good golfers actually do and not what they think or feel they do. The guys at AMG have shown that tour players use their arms quite powerfully in their swings. This, along with the posts that @iacas and others presented.

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23 hours ago, Ryno Martin said:

Hi guys this is a very interesting topic that no two sides will agree on! Me personally don't think it matters if you get your speed from the arms or the body as long has you leave the hands out of it. The hands and or wrist are DEATH to the golf swing. My personal swing thought is the club head follows my hand path all the way to the finish. Obviously this does not happen,just a swing thought of mine. Try it out and let me know what you all think.

 

Good luck throwing a ball, swinging a club, or anything of a similar nature without using the arms, wrists, and hands. If you mean to say don’t use the hands to manipulate the clubface, then sure, I’ll buy it. For shots off the turf, I use my hands and arms a lot—I bend back my right wrist to start the downswing and release those angle through the shot. High push draw. For driver, I throw the clubhead as fast as I can whilst starting the ball to the right. 

If you don’t use your hands and arms, you won’t have any speed. 

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8 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

Good luck throwing a ball, swinging a club, or anything of a similar nature without using the arms, wrists, and hands. If you mean to say don’t use the hands to manipulate the clubface, then sure, I’ll buy it. For shots off the turf, I use my hands and arms a lot—I bend back my right wrist to start the downswing and release those angle through the shot. High push draw. For driver, I throw the clubhead as fast as I can whilst starting the ball to the right. 

If you don’t use your hands and arms, you won’t have any speed. 

The average amateur use their hands and wrist way to much in my opinion. I never said in my post not to use the arms. Try throwing a ball,swinging a club,or anything of a similar nature with out a body!

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12 hours ago, Ryno Martin said:

The average amateur use their hands and wrist way to much in my opinion. 

Do you have any facts or stats to back support your opinion?

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On 11/23/2019 at 7:55 PM, Ryno Martin said:

as long has you leave the hands out of it. The hands and or wrist are DEATH to the golf swing

What does this even mean?  We must get our terms/concepts down before we can discuss them.  

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18 hours ago, Ryno Martin said:

The average amateur use their hands and wrist way to much in my opinion.

Excessive hand and wrist movements are generally a compensation and a result of something else not being done correctly in the swing. Not really the topic here, though.

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Not in a single example in your video of “arms only” did you actually swing using only arms. In every example you tightened your left leg muscles, turned your torso and let your arms remain loose. That’s exactly the point for anyone saying the arms “generate the speed”. Are your arms swinging fast in your video? Yes but that had almost nothing to do with any of the muscles in your arm which is the point of many people. Your arm muscles are passive and the speed is from the whip, several other commenters noted this but maybe didn’t express it the same way. Not in a single example of your arms only swings were you using only the muscles in your arms. Not one. If that were the case your waist would remain parallel to the ball, there should be no change in muscle tension in your legs other than what’s needed for you to stand. No muscle tension in your torso should be felt either. Literally shut off all of the muscles in your body except for your arms and then see how fast you swing. That’s the point of people advocating for powerless arms and your discussion (which is more of a confusion about semantics) has nothing to do with the point people make advocating for not using the arm muscles for the swing.

At about 1:15 in this video he shows the silliness of actually using only your arm muscles for your swing. It’s almost useless. I hate to say it but your argument saying the arms generate speed isn’t saying the same thing as saying the arm muscles aren’t responsible for generating speed in the golf swing. Your arguing something else entirely and doesn’t add much to the relaxed arm muscle advocate discussion. It’s the equivalent of what someone else said about a pitcher; is his arm moving fast? Yep. Is that because of his arm muscles. Almost the opposite is true. 

 

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18 minutes ago, mnguy19 said:

Not in a single example in your video of “arms only” did you actually swing using only arms. In every example you tightened your left leg muscles, turned your torso and let your arms remain loose.

Dude, we're on page 10. You're going to have to be more specific.

If you're referring to the video in the first post, it's not meant to be completely scientific. It's meant to be illustrative, and I feel that it is.

Two additional points: 1) My arms were not "loose" in the first swings, and 2) the shoulders (which move the arms) count as "the arms" for the purposes of this discussion.

Those two points address almost everything else you've got to say:

  • You keep substituting "tense" or "stiff" when I'm saying the muscles are working or active. Tense/stiff isn't the same as active/working.
  • You leave out that the muscles which move the arms across your chest, etc. are part of your "arms" for this discussion. They move the arms relative to your torso, etc.
18 minutes ago, mnguy19 said:

Yes but that had almost nothing to do with any of the muscles in your arm which is the point of many people. Your arm muscles are passive and the speed is from the whip

My arm muscles are not "passive" at all. Nor are the muscles which move the arms relative to my torso, which I've included in the discussion as "arms."

Look at the way the arms work in a long driver. They're anything but "passive." Look at how far Jamie Sadlowski can still drive the ball from his knees. He's limited in his rotation and his ability to use the ground for jumping, but his arms can still move across his chest, fold, lift, etc.

18 minutes ago, mnguy19 said:

Not in a single example of your arms only swings were you using only the muscles in your arms.

Again, the muscles which move the arms relative to the torso are part of the "arms" for this discussion.

18 minutes ago, mnguy19 said:

That’s the point of people advocating for powerless arms

There's no such thing in a good golf swing. The arms contribute speed and power and expend effort.

18 minutes ago, mnguy19 said:

At about 1:15 in this video he shows the silliness of actually using only your arm muscles for your swing.

That video is stupid, man. "Try running with stiff legs"? Again, you're just substituting the word "stiff" when I'm saying the arm muscles (and those that move the arms) are WORKING, expending effort. They're not just limp ropes hanging from the shoulder socket. Working muscles don't have to be stiff. The guy who wins the race in that video has legs that are WORKING.

This is a horrible straw man. Never have I said to make your arms "stiff."

18 minutes ago, mnguy19 said:

Your arguing something else entirely and doesn’t add much to the relaxed arm muscle advocate discussion.

You're misunderstanding what "relaxed" means. By "relaxed" I mean not working, I don't mean "stiff."

C'mon man.

18 minutes ago, mnguy19 said:

It’s the equivalent of what someone else said about a pitcher; is his arm moving fast? Yep. Is that because of his arm muscles. Almost the opposite is true. 

No, it's not. His arm (and the muscles that move his arm) are working hard and contributing the vast majority of the speed of a pitch.

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1 hour ago, iacas said:

No, it's not. His arm (and the muscles that move his arm) are working hard and contributing the vast majority of the speed of a pitch.

Hopefully this isn't too off topic, but would you say you feel you also use the hands and wrists to "throw" the club head (at least with driver) and try to get the head to "win the race" for speed?  Then with the other clubs off the turf, you focus more on flat lead wrist/bent trail wrist and that angle comes out more slowly through the shot?

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