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Speed from the Arms in the Golf Swing

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I think the advocates for no upper body should just simply duct tape their clubs to their belt buckles and play gold that way.  Take the arms, wrists, and hands out of it.  By the way... Your MAX swing speed will be maybe 25 mph using a shaft hooked to your belt.

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6 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

Hopefully this isn't too off topic, but would you say you feel you also use the hands and wrists to "throw" the club head (at least with driver) and try to get the head to "win the race" for speed?  Then with the other clubs off the turf, you focus more on flat lead wrist/bent trail wrist and that angle comes out more slowly through the shot?

No. That generally happens as a result of good sequencing. The hands start slowing down near A6, and the clubhead catches up.

1 minute ago, TJ Allison said:

I think the advocates for no upper body should just simply duct tape their clubs to their belt buckles and play gold that way.  Take the arms, wrists, and hands out of it.  By the way... Your MAX swing speed will be maybe 25 mph using a shaft hooked to your belt.

Well, let them put the grip six to ten inches out from their hips, because your hands aren't attached at the hips - the grip of the club is away from your body a little, increasing the radius. So let them increase the radius a little, too. 🙂

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2 hours ago, iacas said:

No. That generally happens as a result of good sequencing. The hands start slowing down near A6, and the clubhead catches up.

Well, let them put the grip six to ten inches out from their hips, because your hands aren't attached at the hips - the grip of the club is away from your body a little, increasing the radius. So let them increase the radius a little, too. 🙂

They could really do a nice test by taking a nice long fishing rod and seeing how fast they can move that fishing rod in front of a beltronics. 😂😂😂

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2 hours ago, iacas said:

No. That generally happens as a result of good sequencing. The hands start slowing down near A6, and the clubhead catches up.

Gotcha.  With shots off the turf I like to feel and maintain right wrist extension but let it out naturally and steadily.  With shots off the turf, I tend to stay more or less centered and the right wrist extending seems to work as a shallowing move and give me some shaft lean.  Makes for a high push draw.

With driver, I move off the ball quite a bit laterally as I like to "get behind it."  If I merely right wrist extend with driver and don't "let the head win the race"/aka add loft, I feel like the head never releases if I do that and will at best hit a straight block.  By letting the head "go," I get more ball speed and a similar flight as my irons--push draw.  

I have my driver set pretty open and that seems to encourage me slinging the head through.  I thought I would have a hard time timing that up, but so long as I don't pull it, it's a pretty predictable push draw pattern.

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I know that the arms do move and exert effort themselves but whenever I take an "armsy" swing or real "handsy" swing I am all over the place. Just in terms of feel when I am focusing on just my body moving that I play my best golf because it is more controlled.

I know there is no way that the arms do not move I am just talking in terms of feel. The one guy mentioned somebody taping their arms to their side and swinging that way to prove that the arms do exert force and movement, I get it.

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10 minutes ago, ForcedCarry21 said:

I know that the arms do move and exert effort themselves but whenever I take an "armsy" swing or real "handsy" swing I am all over the place. Just in terms of feel when I am focusing on just my body moving that I play my best golf because it is more controlled.

I know there is no way that the arms do not move I am just talking in terms of feel. The one guy mentioned somebody taping their arms to their side and swinging that way to prove that the arms do exert force and movement, I get it.

You may have to feel your body turning for better sequencing in your own swing, but that's not what the topic is about.

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18 minutes ago, ForcedCarry21 said:

I know that the arms do move and exert effort themselves but whenever I take an "armsy" swing or real "handsy" swing I am all over the place. Just in terms of feel when I am focusing on just my body moving that I play my best golf because it is more controlled.

I know there is no way that the arms do not move I am just talking in terms of feel. The one guy mentioned somebody taping their arms to their side and swinging that way to prove that the arms do exert force and movement, I get it.

No argument with your feels, I'm another one who tries to feel the body turn as driving the swing.  One good thing at this site (I see you're pretty new) is that we can discuss both the reality of what should happen, and some feels that can help us make it happen, and distinguish between the two.

Welcome to TheSandTrap!

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This is an informative thread. I'm very much enjoying reading through it again these last few days. It's just so taboo to "swing your arms" in golf or to talk about swinging your arms, or feeling like swinging your arms that I can easily see how this is both a confusing and important topic for many.

But because it's so taboo to talk about this and because it's so easy to score points with any golfer within ear shot by talking about "hitting it with the body," or "opening the hips faster" or whatever, what should be a pretty intuitive thing gets lost in plain sight it seems. Beginners all seem to subconsciously get this, albeit without any correct lower body action or anything close to resembling a functional swing plane, but they seem to more or less get they need to swing their arms fast.

Seriously though, check out Brooks Koepka here from face on:

brooks.PNG

Practice this in front of a mirror or have a friend film you doing it with your phone or something. Just pose this position. Remember to look at the ground like Brooks is doing. If you need to swing your arms more, you're gonna realize real quick just how much so many of the world's top players aggressively do this.

Edited by JetFan1983

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On 12/8/2019 at 2:40 PM, ncates00 said:

Hopefully this isn't too off topic, but would you say you feel you also use the hands and wrists to "throw" the club head (at least with driver) and try to get the head to "win the race" for speed?  Then with the other clubs off the turf, you focus more on flat lead wrist/bent trail wrist and that angle comes out more slowly through the shot?

 

On 12/8/2019 at 5:06 PM, ncates00 said:

Gotcha.  With shots off the turf I like to feel and maintain right wrist extension but let it out naturally and steadily.  With shots off the turf, I tend to stay more or less centered and the right wrist extending seems to work as a shallowing move and give me some shaft lean.  Makes for a high push draw.

With driver, I move off the ball quite a bit laterally as I like to "get behind it."  If I merely right wrist extend with driver and don't "let the head win the race"/aka add loft, I feel like the head never releases if I do that and will at best hit a straight block.  By letting the head "go," I get more ball speed and a similar flight as my irons--push draw.  

I have my driver set pretty open and that seems to encourage me slinging the head through.  I thought I would have a hard time timing that up, but so long as I don't pull it, it's a pretty predictable push draw pattern.

Thankfully I read further, rather than making a fool of myself going off half cocked about your post I quoted first. I took the "win the race" for speed comment as advocating the clubhead getting to the ball before the hands. In other words, a flip! Then I read further and realized that you were talking about "feels"! 

This is how differences in terminology can kind of get in our way. When I hear "throw the clubhead at the ball" I just shut down. In my experience, instructors who preach that have no idea. When that is preached to newbs, they generally end up flipping or throwing the hosel at the ball. 

OK, going to go really out of bounds here. The golf swing is kind of like the universe! Everything is moving! Nothing is static! Not even your head which, back in the day, was taught as the center that the swing revolved around. "Swing around a steady head", was a swing axiom for quite a while. 

No, even the head moves. But, it depends upon the golfer. Some keep their heads pretty still, and other move their heads quite a bit. It just depends on what you figure out that is right for you! 

Jeez. A couple more bourbons and I'll have this game all figured out! 

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17 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

No, even the head moves. But, it depends upon the golfer. Some keep their heads pretty still, and other move their heads quite a bit. It just depends on what you figure out that is right for you! 

 

It seems we often wind up back at do what is right for you theme or it depends upon the individual. Some months back I messed around with something that was different for me. I bought one of those little fiberglass highway marker alignment rods and took that and for the heck of it simply swung it back and forth increasing acceleration each time as if it was a whip.

I repeated this probably 20-25 times (doesn't take long before you can wear yourself out). Then immediately started hitting some balls at the range and was killing the golf ball. I simply was astounded that something so simple could produce the benefit it did. I can only swing like that so much because my "older" body does get tired. Of course it should be noted that swinging an alignment rod at top speeds may not improve ball striking 🙂

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This is a little “speed from the arms” stuff. Not exclusively but he was “under” using them before.

Good video @mvmac. Detractors will say he didn’t completely isolate the arms… while missing the point big time.

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11 hours ago, mvmac said:

 

 

Ok, I am convinced. I need to start playing on my knees! Hey, after the last game I played I would probably shave off about 10 strokes.

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Reading this article made me think of this thread

GettyImages-1207852973-1.jpg

Are you on the hunt for more powerful drives? Well, Dr. Sasho Mackenzie has a new paper out that might be able to help golfers hit longer, better drives.
Quote

Turns out, the force with which you pull down your hands on the downswing is hugely important. More forces correlates with higher clubhead speeds, as Sasho writes in the “application” portion of his paper:

“Methods of training that increase the average force applied in the direction of the hand path during the downswing have the greatest probability in generating increases in clubhead speed.”

 

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As a 15 handicapper, I am clearly not an expert in the golf swing, I am however an  engineer I I understand basic calculation of speed. Mike Malaska's conclusion from his demonstration are shakey at best.

The speed of the tip of that stick as it travels a circular path  is directly proportional to the radius i.e the distance from the sternum, to the tip of the stick.

If it takes a quarter of a second for make a complete swing, it takes 0.125 seconds to go from top of backwing to impact. If you move your shoulders 90 degs in 0.125 seconds, and you are swinging a 45" driver with an arm length of 22" (total radius 67") your clubhead speed is going to be approx 95 mph. 

If you stick the handle of the driver under your armpit so that 40" extends, the radius is going to be closer to 37" and for the same shoulder turn in the same time your clubhead speed is going to be about 52mph.

The speed difference at the tip of the speedstick when swung under the armpit vs when swung with fully extended arms is directly related to difference in distance between the tip of the speed stick and the sternum. His conclusion that the arms 'generate' speed is not supported by the results of his experiment.

Its the same reason that for the exact same swing the clubhead speed of a driver would be  faster than that of a 7 iron

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5 hours ago, smdillon said:

If it takes a quarter of a second for make a complete swing, it takes 0.125 seconds to go from top of backwing to impact. If you move your shoulders 90 degs in 0.125 seconds, and you are swinging a 45" driver with an arm length of 22" (total radius 67") your clubhead speed is going to be approx 95 mph. 

Those calculations ignore two things:

  • The club shaft and left arm are almost never straight. The distance from the left shoulder to the clubhead is rarely 67", and is only 67" for a fleeting moment in a golf swing.
  • The club accelerates, it isn't traveling the arc of that thing at a constant speed. It's accelerating from 0 MPH.

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